I agree. A little bit of a stretch here but, if I do not like Fords, am I discriminating against Ford because I won't buy one ?
Nope... but what if Ford wouldn't sell to you because of your religion or sexual orientation? Henry was a anti semite that backed Hitler, so he was heading that way, but I still own a mustang. People and companies change.
What these gay guys did was worse than the landscaper. All the landscaper did was refuse to work for someone because they had a certain lifestyle. The homosexuals turned it into a "cause." If they chose not to do business with them, fine, move on to someone who will. To imply that the decision was made out of "ignorance" is really saying that they expect everyone else to accept them for who they are regardless of what they believe of feel is right. In other words- accept what we believe is right, but you don't have the right to believe what you think is right. As for me, the thought of two guys with stubby faces nuzzling in the morning and... just gives me the willy's. Am I a homophobe? I don't think so, but if I were locked in a gay bar packed with homosexual men I might turn into one rather quickly.
[This message has been edited by F-I-E-R-O (edited 11-11-2006).]
And other religions say kill blacks, beat women, and cut the heads off Americans. Religion is personal, and should have nothing to do with buisness.
That's your opinion
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Originally posted by Boondawg: And I believe your bible says, "Hate the sin, but pity the sinner".
That doesn't mean I have to enable or accomodate someone that sinning either.
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Originally posted by Boondawg: Question: Would you do buisness with someone who hates blacks?
Not willingly, if I knew that to be the case.
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Originally posted by Boondawg: Would you want to know that before you attempt to do buisness with them?
That's not a question I would ask, no. Nor would I ask if they were gay.
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Originally posted by Boondawg: Would you ask them?
See above
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Originally posted by Boondawg: Is it any of your buisness?
Not necessarily, but in this case and many others it was evidently apparent that the men were gay since the landscaper correctly determined that.
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Originally posted by Boondawg: Would it make a difference weither you agreed or disagreed with their beliefs?
Would WHAT make a difference?
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Originally posted by Boondawg: Meaning, do you, or can you, hand out a questioneer asking people about thier beliefs, sexual orintation, likes & dislikes, religion, family history, etc., before you do buisness with them?
No questionaire, and in the posted case it apparently wasn't necessary.
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Originally posted by Boondawg: Or, is it that none of that is any of your buisness and should have no bearing on your desision to provide them service?
Everything has a bearing on what I choose to do and who I choose to do it with. It does with you, too, I'm just more honest about my choices. I won't lie (by omission) or tell people something they want to hear just because it's politically correct.
Originally posted by Phranc: If I was a compeating buisness I'd just rush in offer the same work for less $$$ and ride the PR wave to more jobs.
And that would be your right. But what if they were all republicans? The almighty dollar speaks loud and clear except when you truly have a moral issue with something, well, it does for some of us.
------------------ Ron Land of the Free because of the Brave. Most gave some, some gave all. My imagination is the only limiting factor to my Fiero. Well, there is that money issue.
What if, as a mechanic, I don't like Fieros so I'm not going to work on them. It's the individual's choice to buy and drive one and my choice as to what and who I want to work for/on.
John Stricker
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Originally posted by Scott-Wa:
Nope... but what if Ford wouldn't sell to you because of your religion or sexual orientation? Henry was a anti semite that backed Hitler, so he was heading that way, but I still own a mustang. People and companies change.
Originally posted by Scott-Wa: Nope... but what if Ford wouldn't sell to you because of your religion or sexual orientation?
What would be the problem...I don't like Fords anyway j/k j/k j/k I do see your point. However it is a business decision which affects them. They are not in business for me. No one is entitled to a car like they are a public education or access to public buildings. It is the private sector just as ones personal preferences are.
You have NO IDEA what his concern was. He (and I) have a moral issue in associating with and working for people that CHOOSE to live a lifestyle that we believe to be wrong. If you don't, have at it Boonie, but don't MAKE ME do it.
John Stricker
PS: Interesting that now you even presume to know the mind of God.
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Originally posted by Boondawg:
I think he was more concerned that this work would better the Quality Of Life of a few gay men. And that would have been seen as an endorsement of their lifestyle. And his God would hate him for that.
Originally posted by 84Bill: I throw it out there because thats the way I view intolorance. Intolorance is just a euphimism for hate and discrimination and is the reason inequities and injustice to exist.
Again, Bill, that's YOUR VIEW and YOUR OPINION and you're entitled to it, but don't MAKE ME by force of law live according to your view and that's where this is going.
You have NO IDEA what his concern was. He (and I) have a moral issue in associating with and working for people that CHOOSE to live a lifestyle that we believe to be wrong. If you don't, have at it Boonie, but don't MAKE ME do it.
John Stricker
PS: Interesting that now you even presume to know the mind of God.
This is why in the Ruby Ridge incident I was fully behind the Weaver's right to be left alone. I despise their ideology but they decided to isolate themselves from those they didn't want to interact with, they didn't try to impose their viewpoint on others through discrimination. Then some idiot in our government decided they needed to make an example of them somehow and deaths resulted. I don't go poking around in a bear's den, ain't my problem unless the bear is coming into my neighborhood attacking me or my neighbors.
Precisely correct, Scott. They were loons. Nuts. Wacko. But they were off by themselves being loonie. They knew they didn't fit in so they left. Then the Government decided that "no, you must conform". And that's not getting better.
John Stricker
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Originally posted by Scott-Wa:
This is why in the Ruby Ridge incident I was fully behind the Weaver's right to be left alone. I despise their ideology but they decided to isolate themselves from those they didn't want to interact with, they didn't try to impose their viewpoint on others through discrimination. Then some idiot in our government decided they needed to make an example of them somehow and deaths resulted. I don't go poking around in a bear's den, ain't my problem unless the bear is coming into my neighborhood attacking me or my neighbors.
This has got to be the dumbest bickering topic I've ever seen. Some group of assholes (*ahem* almost literally) get pissed at a business for choosing not to do business with a gay couple? What a tub of crap, IMO...
Yeah, it was worded badly. "I don't like you 'cuz you're gay", basically. Whatever. Then be a little pissed at the business and move on. No. They go and ride the "Gay Pride" wave while pissing all over anyone who chooses not to associate with gay guys. Umm... can you say "blown out of proportion"? So the guy doesn't want to get hit on every 3 minutes while doing yard work! That's his choice! Obviously he's not that desperate for business. He can make it without one customer and his group of gay ****buddies. Now this gay guy goes out of his way to make a massive stink all over the internet saying they're being discriminated against.
Ding ding, sucker... ya think? I think it's a given by now that if you hang out with gay guys, you'll end up getting hit on. Some people just don't feel like putting up with that, so they stop before it even gets started. Sure, not all gays are like that, the same way not all black people steal bikes in the ghetto. But damn if it's not a majority.
I hope he's getting a flood of new business from people that aren't uptight anal assholes (*ahem* again...). Kinda like the Dixie Chicks. They get all this negative "vibe" but guess what? They gain a whole shitload of new fans in the process. Hate them all you want... all you're doing is making them more famous.
------------------
'87 Fiero GT, Automatic, 153k miles, stock everything, just trying to make it all work again. :D
And that would be your right. But what if they were all republicans? The almighty dollar speaks loud and clear except when you truly have a moral issue with something, well, it does for some of us.
Gays I would work for but gay republicans crosses the line.
I've never been hit on by gays when hanging out with them. And I'm sexy.
[This message has been edited by Phranc (edited 11-11-2006).]
Originally posted by Phranc: Gays I would work for but gay republicans crosses the line. I've never been hit on by gays when hanging out with them. And I'm sexy.
Exactly my point and that would make you discriminating against a minority group.
------------------ Ron Land of the Free because of the Brave. Most gave some, some gave all. My imagination is the only limiting factor to my Fiero. Well, there is that money issue.
How the hell does a mentality make a person a "minority"? Isn't that like hating jews? Just because of a choice of lifestyle, they become a "minority"?
I'm a minority then. I think this whole discussion is bullshit.
Gays I would work for but gay republicans crosses the line.
I've never been hit on by gays when hanging out with them. And I'm sexy.
I was once in college, didn't offend me anymore than having a woman hit on me. Kind of an ego boost to have even a guy attracted to ya. I must have been sexier than you
Now this gay guy goes out of his way to make a massive stink all over the internet saying they're being discriminated against.
Who says he went out of his way? How far out of your way did you go to make that reply? Things spread like wildfire, I don't think the couple that the business wrote the letter to asked for anything further from that company. Did you see them demand they mow the lawn? Did you see them file a court action? It's some on both sides of the issue that read about it getting stupid with threats and rude responses. I think emailing friends asking them not to use the company is just as valid as what the company did... seems like the american thing to do, boycott them.
Just struck me that their response falls in line with what the business did... they don't want people with their views supporting that business. Tit for Tat.
Not a mention of asking the ACLU to file a case, suing or the likes.
[This message has been edited by Scott-Wa (edited 11-11-2006).]
Throughout this discussion I keep seeing in my mind this sign I have actually seen many times. Posted in many businesses are signs that say "We have the right to refuse service to anyone". There must be a legal reason for it though I do not see why there should be.
Who says he went out of his way? How far out of your way did you go to make that reply? Things spread like wildfire, I don't think the couple that the business wrote the letter to asked for anything further from that company. Did you see them demand they mow the lawn? Did you see them file a court action? It's some on both sides of the issue that read about it getting stupid with threats and rude responses. I think emailing friends asking them not to use the company is just as valid as what the company did... seems like the american thing to do, boycott them.
F-I-E-R-O said it best... and you are quite wrong, to put it simply.
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What these gay guys did was worse than the landscaper. All the landscaper did was refuse to work for someone because they had a certain lifestyle. The homosexuals turned it into a "cause." If they chose not to do business with them, fine, move on to someone who will. To imply that the decision was made out of "ignorance" is really saying that they expect everyone else to accept them for who they are regardless of what they believe of feel is right. In other words- accept what we believe is right, but you don't have the right to believe what you think is right.
Exactly my point and that would make you discriminating against a minority group.
Who Log Cabbiners? Realy I'd work for anyone even my fellow republicans.
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Originally posted by Scott-Wa:
I was once in college, didn't offend me anymore than having a woman hit on me. Kind of an ego boost to have even a guy attracted to ya. I must have been sexier than you
I've been told that I give off that *NOT GAY* vibe realy hard. Wich I find odd.
It's quite wrong. You say he didn't "go out of his way" any more than I did to write that post. The action of forwarding an email is small and probably wouldn't cause much of a crap. But chances are, this twit did a lot more than that - he probably told others, added a nice flavoring of "Gay Pride" to the whole message, threw it around, watched it pick up momentum among the literal cocksuckers, and enjoyed the hell out of watching the poor landscaper get bombarded with death threats and other BS.
All Mr. Gay had to do was leave it be, or find someone else to do the landscaping job, and leave each other alone. Instead we have a ginormic shitstorm on our hands.
It's quite wrong. You say he didn't "go out of his way" any more than I did to write that post. The action of forwarding an email is small and probably wouldn't cause much of a crap. But chances are, this twit did a lot more than that - he probably told others, added a nice flavoring of "Gay Pride" to the whole message, threw it around, watched it pick up momentum among the literal cocksuckers, and enjoyed the hell out of watching the poor landscaper get bombarded with death threats and other BS.
All Mr. Gay had to do was leave it be, or find someone else to do the landscaping job, and leave each other alone. Instead we have a ginormic shitstorm on our hands.
Gee. just like the landscaper... could have just left it alone and not bid the job, but oh no, had to take it to the next level.
So you blame the gay guys for the actions of those on the internet that read the posts that got spread around... nice.
[This message has been edited by Scott-Wa (edited 11-11-2006).]
In the first place, they did NOT bid the job, according to the article.
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Michael Lord and Gary Lackey, a gay couple requesting bids for a landscaping job at their new house, received a polite - and, well, honest - e-mail from Sabrina Farber, a co-owner of Garden Guy: "I need to tell you that we cannot meet with you because we choose not to work for homosexuals."
NOWHERE did it say the actually BID the job, they simply responded honestly to the request for a bid.
Second, the gay couple DID push the issue on the internet, not the landscapers.
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Stunned, Lackey forwarded the e-mail to 200 friends, asking them not to patronize Garden Guy and urging them to pass the word on to friends and family. Within days, the e-mail had been forwarded to thousands of people around the world, and quickly became the subject of heated and often ugly debates on the Internet
Not only that, but:
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Farber, whose company's Web site has long included Biblical quotes and a link to a Web site that opposes gay marriage
The company and it's owners made it VERY CLEAR in their website their feelings on homsexuality and STILL the gay couple requested bids from them. I think I smell a setup here, if you want to know the truth.
"Hey, these people don't like gays, let's see if we can get them to bid a job and if they don't, we can drag them through the mud."
I'd say, given the facts of the story, that's more likely than your trying to blame the landscape company owners.
John Stricker
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Originally posted by Scott-Wa:
Gee. just like the landscaper... could have just left it alone and not bid the job, but oh no, had to take it to the next level.
So you blame the gay guys for the actions of those on the internet that read the posts that got spread around... nice.
In the construction as well as the hosting I decide who I serve..
Example: I DO NOT HOST A - D - U - L - T sites, thats one decision I made years ago and I DECIDED THAT since its my business.
In construction, I decide as well who I work for. I told one woman this past summer after doing some work for her and putting up with her horrible abusive attitude that in the future I wouldnt be able for her. She wanted me to do another job after this first one, but ITS MY CHOICE AS A BUSINESS OWNER and I turned her down.
Normal people have barely any rights now due to being "political correct" (school prayers, saying merry christmas, putting up with second hand smoking, but its ok for us to deal with it since its their right to smoke, almost anything that was ok about 20 years ago) so its about time more people stepped up for what they believe in and not worrry if they offend dumb & dumber..
PS... It was ADAM & EVE ... NOT ADAM & STEVE..
[This message has been edited by isthiswhereiputausername? (edited 11-11-2006).]
This is my question. Would it be such a big deal if a heterosexual couple requested landscaping bids and was turned down by a company owned by homosexuals and they stated their reason as "not wanting to do business with heterosexuals."? Would most people even begin to consider the situation descriminatory if the tables were turned? I just wonder why, when both situations would essentially be the same, would one gain attention and legality and the other would most likely not. In a perfect world, both would gain equal attention. But I know that probably wouldn't be the case.
------------------ Whade' "The Duck Formerly Known As Wade" Duck '87 GT Auto '88 Ferrario '84 Indy (8/26/06)
This is my question. Would it be such a big deal if a heterosexual couple requested landscaping bids and was turned down by a company owned by homosexuals and they stated their reason as "not wanting to do business with heterosexuals."? Would most people even begin to consider the situation descriminatory if the tables were turned? I just wonder why, when both situations would essentially be the same, would one gain attention and legality and the other would most likely not. In a perfect world, both would gain equal attention. But I know that probably wouldn't be the case.
Of course not. Some people are more equal than others.
No, they're not the same, and I'm sure you'll meet the same flood of "WTF are you thinking?" that Scott-Wa got.
Straight people don't go around waving "Straight pride" flags all over the place and shouting to the world like "BE STRAIGHT LIKE ME! LOL!". The whole point of this debate is in how far gays took their "gay pride" social and political power and used it against this company. So now, thanks to one company deciding not to do business with some gay guys, the whole "gay movement" is against them.
And to top it all off, being gay is a state of mind, not something like race or origin... so what the hell does it matter anyway? If they want to live that life, they can take the consequences, and no, they do not have the right to be "offended" by it and not by a long shot to spam people and forums with their "I'm offended!" bullshit either.
Great, all we need is to have these all over our neighborhoods...
OK, probably not a good idea! Plus, how much work would they get done, if they see each other bent over all the time, you know planting things, pulling things, etc.
Originally posted by jstricker: Again, Bill, that's YOUR VIEW and YOUR OPINION and you're entitled to it, but don't MAKE ME by force of law live according to your view and that's where this is going.
John Stricker
And you don't see your OPINION and YOUR VIEW to be intolorant?
I'm not the one who is intolorant because (insert reason here), you are. What are you afraid of Jonh? Gunna burn in hell, catch aids, get raped? Your intolorance makes as much sense as the salem witch trials and the spanish inquisition. It serves no purpose other than to divide, separate, discriminate... hate. Is that what America is to you? A cesspool of intolorance? What you want and screw the rest?
Originally posted by blackrams: I believe that is the issue, can a business owner not sell his/her service or product to a specific group, in this case gays.
That is indeed the issue. Can a PUBLIC entity refuse service to (insert minority here). If thats the case I can see business refusing to cater to black, hispanics, etc. But thats race.. What about other minority groups like gays? Thats the issue. So ok.. what about a bunch of guy living in one house? Does that mean they are gay? Does that mean John can refuse them service or even hire one of them? Sure it's ok for guys to live in one house but not gay guys? It makes no sense.
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What if they choose to not sell to drug dealers or gangs because what the potential customer represented was against their religios beliefs. Now you've got a religious freedom issue. BTW, my post above was an honest question, not meant as a flame. Tolerance, that road goes both ways, seems to me the gay dudes should understand and be tolerant of the businesses beliefs. It does go both ways doesn't it? Hmm, maybe not.
The fact is a PUBLIC entity can not discriminate and it appears there is a new line about to be drawn on the issue of discrimination against gays.. Personally I find the lifestyle to be revolting and ... just plain EEEWWW which thats why I'm not gay. But I'm not going to discriminate agains a gay person no more than I discriminate against anyone else be they black, hindu or gay... I don't care.
i just choose not to associate myself with homosexuals. period. i dont talk to them, i dont do business with them, and i wouldnt shake their hand if i ever was introduced to one. If i dont know that they are gay, then its all the same to me. I would like it just that i never have to know.
Wow. Reading some of the stuff here makes me glad that I live in a country where there's a complete acceptance of gay people. In fact, there's only one group of people here that don't accept gay people and those are the muslims. It's one of the reasons I can't get myself to moving to the States, because I can't live in a society that's displays so much intolerance towards gay people. What's next? Small signs on restaurants' doors that read: "straight people only"? Are gays allowed to call you "sir" or should they address you with "Massa"?
Not shaking hands with gay people if you were introduced to them? OMFG. You sir, disgust me.
Wow. Reading some of the stuff here makes me glad that I live in a country where there's a complete acceptance of gay people. In fact, there's only one group of people here that don't accept gay people and those are the muslims. It's one of the reasons I can't get myself to moving to the States, because I can't live in a society that's displays so much intolerance towards gay people. What's next? Small signs on restaurants' doors that read: "straight people only"? Are gays allowed to call you "sir" or should they address you with "Massa"?
Not shaking hands with gay people if you were introduced to them? OMFG. You sir, disgust me.
Originally posted by pokeyfiero: It isn't really like this Cliff.
You are right and bums don't get murdered or churches burned by a gang of "bored" teenagers.. Right?
Come on Pokey.. don't delude yourself.. it's alot worse than you allow yourself to comprehend.
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A forum on the Garden Guy Web site, normally reserved for discussions about landscaping and shrubbery, was bombarded with angry comments and venomous attacks from as far away as Australia. Some people attacked the Farbers' beliefs, threatened the couple and their five children, and said they ought to be sodomized. Others condemned gays as sinners headed toward damnation. Farber, whose company's Web site has long included Biblical quotes and a link to a Web site that opposes gay marriage, said she was shocked by the reaction.
