Again, for you since you persist in missing the point:
I DO NOT CARE HOW THEY LIVE THEIR LIVES I ONLY WANT TO BE LEFT OUT OF IT
Can you hear me now?
John Stricker
quote
Originally posted by Boondawg:
"YOUR LIFE" It's no one elses, and therefore cannot be dictated on the whim of someones personal belief on how they should live it, as long as it does not hurt another.
Originally posted by Boondawg: "YOUR LIFE" It's no one elses, and therefore cannot be dictated on the whim of someones personal belief on how they should live it, as long as it does not hurt another.
Ohh.. thats goooooood... I'll have to add that one..
Originally posted by 84Bill: ENTERPRISE of civil authority is the government at large. They have a duty to ensure the civil rights of the people are not violated.
So how are the rights of this BUSINESS being violated? They arent... simple as that.. business don't have CIVIL rights.
As long as I have THE CHOICE to decide who I will or will not do business with my rights are NOT violated. When MY RIGHTS are violated is when I'm forced under penalty of law or through terroistic threat and REQUIRED to do business with those I feel are living a morally unconscienable life.
Todd, My apologies, Didn't mean to go over your head. Just trying to point out your hypocrisy. I'll try to explain. I was just wondering why your statement didn't apply to the Dixie Chicks?
You said:
Clearly my response was over YOUR head. I'll dumb it down a little,
It doesn't apply to the Dixie Chicks since the analogy is inaccurate. The Dixie Chicks, unlike our gardening friends, made a political comment during a performance in which paying customers had every right to expect NOT to have to listen to a political rant but instead to enjoy the music. Those customers were promised music and got politics, that is false advertising and fraud. The Gardeners, although clearly bigoted and obnoxious, took no money for their services before the assault on their opinions began.
If I met a gardener who refused to work with Republicans I'd simply say, "Fine, can I watch from the sidelines as your business goes downt he toilet?" and have been content to walk away.
But had I forked up $40 to hear a concert and be forced to endure the dimwitted ravings of an ignorant valley girl I would have demanded my money back, and an apology, and would be entitled to both! To my knowledge the Dixie Chicks have never apologized to their patrons for these misdemeanors.
You do.. but if you have opinions against a gay lifestyles your BUSINESS had better serve gays as equally as you serve anyone else. OR ELSE your business may be sued in court.
You ARE entitled to your opinion John but if you use your business to propogate your hate then you may be in for a rude awakening.
quote
Originally posted by jstricker: As long as I have THE CHOICE to decide who I will or will not do business with my rights are NOT violated. When MY RIGHTS are violated is when I'm forced under penalty of law or through terroistic threat and REQUIRED to do business with those I feel are living a morally unconscienable life.
quote
That I will not stand for.
John Stricker
Then YOU will fall.
[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 11-13-2006).]
I DO NOT CARE HOW THEY LIVE THEIR LIVES I ONLY WANT TO BE LEFT OUT OF IT Can you hear me now?
And the landscaper could have been left out of it if he would have just said, "No thank you.". But he proved he WANTED in thier personal life when he stated, (in not so many words) "Becouse you are homosexuals."
HE'S THE ONE THAT INTRUDED INTO SOMEONES PERSONAL LIFE!
I KNOW you heard THAT!
[This message has been edited by Boondawg (edited 11-13-2006).]
Bring it on, Bill. I will follow my conscince and have no regrets, whatever the outcome, be that in reference to the violation of private business deciding on who they can or cannot work for or in deciding for myself who is, or is not, living a lifestyle I can support.
John Stricker
quote
Originally posted by 84Bill:
You do.. but if you have opinions against a gay lifestyles you had better serve gays as equally as you serve anyone else. OR ELSE your business may be sued in court.
You ARE entitled to your opinion John but if you use your business to propogate your hate then you may be in for a rude awakening. Then YOU will fall.
Again, if he'd have been less than honest. He chose not to do that and is being villified for it. Nice choice there when we have to set aside our principles to stay out of trouble. Not acceptable and also not according to the Bible.
John Stricker
BTW, you're also assuming the gay couple didn't set out this little sting operation, personally I think everything points to the fact that they did and therefore THEY interjected their agenda into the business owners' life. Up until the time THEY CONTACTED THE BUSINESS, the owner didn't know, and didn't care, what lifestyle they led from all accounts.
quote
Originally posted by Boondawg:
And the landscaper could have been left out of it if he would have just said, "No thank you.". But he proved it WANTED in thier personal life when he stated, (in not so many words) "Becouse you are homosexuals." HE'S THE ONE THAT INTRUDED INTO SOMEONES PERSONAL LIFE!
I have absolutly NOTHING to loose by fighting this issue with you John.
quote
Originally posted by jstricker:
Bring it on, Bill. I will follow my conscince and have no regrets, whatever the outcome, be that in reference to the violation of private business deciding on who they can or cannot work for or in deciding for myself who is, or is not, living a lifestyle I can support.
John Stricker
Your PUBLIC business is at stake and I'll be seeing what I can do about bringing attention to it. I'm sure you sell your wheat and I'm sure there is a gay business man who will offer to buy it. Go ahead and refuse to sell.
[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 11-13-2006).]
The only people harmed in this story is the company that exercised their free choice to not expose themselves or their employees to people living a lifestyle they disagree with.
Their employees have never picked up a magazine, never watched TV, never seen a movie? What type of person in our society has never been “exposed” to “people living a lifestyle they disagree with”? Is there something special about people in the landscaping business I should know about?
quote
Originally posted by Taijiguy:
Was that harmful to the gay couple? Maybe their ego was bruised, but so what?
Yeah, so what?
Perhaps if you spent your whole life being criticized and persecuted for something you had no control over which wasn’t illegal and caused no harm to anyone, then you’d have a different perspective.
quote
Originally posted by Taijiguy:
If they're as proud and tolerant as they expect other people to be, why couldn't they just say, "hey, that's cool. There are other companies that'll do the job. No problem."
If you had your face rubbed in it for the umpteenth time, you might be getting a little pissed-off as well.
quote
Originally posted by Taijiguy:
Can you or anyone honestly look at the situation and not see just how childish this gay couple behaved?
Yes.
It was the landscape company in my opinion that acted like immature morons.
I have a least one openly gay client. I’ve been to his house many times for private computer consultations. I could tell the first time I was there that he was a little nervous of how I might perceive his lifestyle. Some of the generalizations turned out to be true. Yes, he had beautiful artwork throughout his apartment. However, he acted in a very respectful manner (as did I) and I was never made to feel uncomfortable. His money is as good as anyone else’s. And no, despite what some of you would wish to believe, he doesn’t earn his income doing blow jobs. He owns a transmission shop!
quote
Originally posted by Taijiguy:
Respect is not something you can demand of anyone, it has to be earned.
And that’s the problem Taiji, no matter how hard some gay people may try, they’ll never be able to earn the respect of many “straight” people.
Originally posted by jstricker: in reference to the violation of private business
John Stricker
There is no such thing as a "private" business. That was undermined a long time ago by the government. It's just called private because it sounds all nice, safe and cozy like.
It is interesting that the Christian's who believe in discriminating against homosexuals feel completely justified in doing so and in stating that they are doing so.
Why is it then NOT acceptable for the homosexuals to respond back with emails, letters and a boycott against those they believe are living a lifestyle that won't just accept them as other humans. They aren't asking you to sleep with them, they aren't asking to rape your children no matter what some idiots here think, they aren't looking to convert anyone. Story is a gay COUPLE, ie, people that have committed to each other in some manner... having someone tell them they won't do business with them because they don't like something about them... hey, so they couple tells their friend not to do business with them because they don't like that... tit for tat. Get it? This is America, they didn't take the business to court for discrimination, they outted them for their choice to be bigotted against gays.
Is the couple any more responsible for the actions of people on the internet than the business is for those here calling gays pedophiles and other rude things?
I say NO... the business owners wanted to put their beliefs out there and so did the gay couple.
Both have the right to state their feelings, the right of the business to discriminate is far more questionable than the right of the individuals not happy with the business to complain, boycott etc.
It would be so nice if homophobes had a clue, and I'm not pigeonholing John with that label, but a few others here have their pictures in the dictionary next to the word.
We will never know if he was being honest it's OWN sake, or something else. I don't know how he lives his life or how many commandments he may or may not break. The fact is, I'm pretty sure he does NOT walk down the street telling EVERYONE how he disaproves of them, the way they act, the way they look, and the way that they live thier lives. I believe NO ONE is 100% honest at ALL times. We ALL keep SOME things about how we feel to ourselves. Weither it's about our boss, or our wife's weight. We do it to either be accepted, liked, to protect others feelings, or to not be discriminated againest.
quote
Originally posted by jstricker: Nice choice there when we have to set aside our principles to stay out of trouble. Not acceptable and also not according to the Bible.
The bible used to condone ALOT of things that are deemed WRONG today.
quote
Originally posted by jstricker: BTW, you're also assuming the gay couple didn't set out this little sting operation
That matters not. They proved it still exsisted. Maybe they were testing the system. The duty of every freedom-loving American. That's how injustes are righted. That's how Rosa Parks did it.
[This message has been edited by Boondawg (edited 11-13-2006).]
Now I'm really nervous. That's the problem with you Bill, you have nothing, therefore you have nothing to lose. I do have a lot to lose but won't back away regardless. It's easy to have conviction when there are no consequences.
John Stricker
PS: How do you know I sell my wheat PUBLICLY? Isn't it quite possible I sell it to ANOTHER PRIVATE INDIVIDUAL? (In fact, I sell a LOT Of grain to private parties)
quote
Originally posted by 84Bill:
I have absolutly NOTHING to loose by fighting this issue with you John. Your PUBLIC business is at stake and I'll be seeing what I can do about bringing attention to it. I'm sure you sell your wheat and I'm sure there is a gay business man who will offer to buy it. Go ahead and refuse to sell.
Now I'm really nervous. That's the problem with you Bill, you have nothing, therefore you have nothing to lose. I do have a lot to lose but won't back away regardless. It's easy to have conviction when there are no consequences.
John Stricker
PS: How do you know I sell my wheat PUBLICLY? Isn't it quite possible I sell it to ANOTHER PRIVATE INDIVIDUAL? (In fact, I sell a LOT Of grain to private parties)
You better hope that they have a"token gay guy" at the meals they serve your wheat at so they dont get billy after you....
This thread is becoming pathetic..
I am a christian, I am proud of it.. I dont approve of homos, the removal of prayer from schools and think the government bending everything the US was built on decades ago to suit all these freaks is what is causing this world to go downhill so quick.
Do they also refuse to work for people that are straight, living together and aren't married? Do they also refuse to work for people that are divorced? Do they also refuse to work for people that aren't Christian? Do they also refuse to work for people that aren't married and are not virgins?
Who is more in your face? Unmarried heterosexuals in public/on tv/ in magazines having sexual relationships flaunted about... or gay peoples private lives? What about Hugh Hefner and all his girlfriends.... got their own tv show that covers their sexual escapades minus the actual sex. Are they working to outlaw that?
Since they are actively working to outlaw gay marriage... are they also actively seeking to outlaw heterosexual divorce? Are they actively seeking to outlaw sex outside of marriage?
Legislating morality doesn't make people more morale. Just makes us more like the Taliban.
Whatever John.. you sound like a snott nosed brat stomping his little feet and screaming because he has to share with everyone in the class instead of just his own buddies.
Freakin Communists
quote
Originally posted by jstricker:
Now I'm really nervous. That's the problem with you Bill, you have nothing, therefore you have nothing to lose. I do have a lot to lose but won't back away regardless. It's easy to have conviction when there are no consequences.
John Stricker
quote
PS: How do you know I sell my wheat PUBLICLY? Isn't it quite possible I sell it to ANOTHER PRIVATE INDIVIDUAL? (In fact, I sell a LOT Of grain to private parties)
You may but lets see what the gay community can dig up if they decide to make an example of you. Who knows.. maybe you are small time and not worth the effort... but you never know.
Originally posted by isthiswhereiputausername?: think the government bending everything the US was built on decades ago to suit all these freaks is what is causing this world to go downhill so quick.
The US was built on SLAVE LABOR. Progress is not ALL bad!
No, I think It's people staying stuck in the stone-age that is keeping us from reaching our FULL potental. Look at us, as a spieces, we STILL think MONEY is the answer to EVERYTHING! How backwards is that?
No, I think It's people staying stuck in the stone-age that is keeping us from reaching our FULL potental.
So people thinking homosexuality is wrong is stuck in the stone age?
People that have morals are stuck in the stone age? Shucks, I gues me beter goe outa thee caveshed and finnish woreking on maeking the wheal inventshun soe I can come ouet the stoen ages.
Originally posted by isthiswhereiputausername?: You better hope that they have a"token gay guy" at the meals they serve your wheat at so they dont get billy after you....
quote
This thread is becoming pathetic..
Actually you are pathetic.
quote
I am a christian, I am proud of it.. I dont approve of homos, the removal of prayer from schools and think the government bending everything the US was built on decades ago to suit all these freaks is what is causing this world to go downhill so quick.
Hey good for you but the problem is you and the likes of you are the one destroying this country and violating civil rights. If you had your way women would be wearing blck hijabs at the beach and kneeling in prayer all day. Alcohol would be banned and the cruisades of days gone by would resume.
Hey.. save yourself and leave the rest of us alone. If you want a business then you have to deal WITH THE PUBLIC and not just your own creeped out clan.
[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 11-13-2006).]
Whatever John.. you sound like a snott nosed brat stomping his little feet and screaming because he has to share with everyone in the class instead of just his own buddies.
Freakin Communists
You may but lets see what the gay community can dig up if they decide to make an example of you. Who knows.. maybe you are small time and not worth the effort... but you never know.
Better leave the country john.. King bill spoke and will have his gay drones after you. ..
A product he supplies.. he has every right what is done with it until its sold.. Until you pay 110% of his daily bills and own controlling interest in his life, you get a life..
[This message has been edited by isthiswhereiputausername? (edited 11-13-2006).]
Landscaper Under Fire for Refusing to Work for Blacks By MONICA RHOR, AP
BATON ROUGE (Nov. 10, 1860) - A few short months ago, Cotton Guy was just a mom-and-pop landscaping business that promoted itself as "making Baton Rouge beautiful since 1791" and promised to treat its customers with respect and honesty. Since then, though, the business has been vilified around the United States as a bunch of bigots because its Roman Catholic owners refused to do work for a black couple. Michael Jones and Feya Smith, a black couple requesting bids for a landscaping job at their new house, received a polite - and, well, honest - post from Sabrina Farber, a co-owner of Cotton Guy: "I need to tell you that we cannot meet with you because we choose not to work for colored people."
Stunned, Jones forwarded the post to 200 friends, asking them not to patronize Cotton Guy and urging them to pass the word on to friends and family. "I'm still shocked by the ignorance that exists in today's society," Jones said in his post. And word was indeed passed on - as fast as the post roads could carry it. Within months, the post had been forwarded to thousands of people around the United States, and quickly became the subject of heated and often ugly debates on gatherings. Because of the furor, a professional association of landscapers created a nondiscrimination policy.
A messageboard on the Cotton Guy building, normally reserved for discussions about landscaping and shrubbery, was bombarded with angry comments and venomous attacks from as far away as Pennsylvania. Some people attacked the Farbers' beliefs, threatened the couple and their five children, and said they ought to be lynched. Others condemned blacks as sinners headed toward damnation. Farber, whose company's messageboard has long included quotes from the Old Testament and an address of a fraternity that opposes black people, said she was shocked by the reaction. "It was just our intent to uphold our rights as small business owners to choose our clientele," she said. "All the hate, the threats of lynching my children, the threats of me being murdered, came out because of a very businesslike straightforward post I sent. The crowd of tolerance and diversity is not so tolerant."
Landscaper Under Fire for Refusing to Work for Jews By MONICA RHOR, AP
BERLIN (Nov. 10, 1939) - A few short weeks ago, Garten Mensch was just a mom-and-pop landscaping business that promoted itself as "making Berlin beautiful since 1891" and promised to treat its customers with respect and honesty. Since then, though, the business has been vilified around Europe as a bunch of bigots because its Christian conservative owners refused to do work for a jewish couple. Hans Cohen and Anna Silberstein, a jewish couple requesting bids for a landscaping job at their new house, received a polite - and, well, honest - letter from Sabrina Farber, a co-owner of Garten Mensch: "I need to tell you that we cannot meet with you because we choose not to work for Jews."
Stunned, Cohen forwarded the post to 200 friends, asking them not to patronize Garten Mensch and urging them to pass the word on to friends and family. "I'm still shocked by the ignorance that exists in today's society," Cohen said in his post. And word was indeed passed on - as fast as the Deutsche Reichspost could carry it. Within weeks, the letter had been forwarded to thousands of people around Europe, and quickly became the subject of heated and often ugly debates on parties. Because of the furor, a professional association of landscapers created a nondiscrimination policy.
A periodical distributed by Garten Mensch, normally reserved for discussions about landscaping and shrubbery, was bombarded with angry letters and venomous attacks from as far away as Poland. Some people attacked the Farbers' beliefs, threatened the couple and their five children, and said they ought to be burned. Others condemned Jews as sinners headed toward damnation. Farber, whose company's periodical has long included Biblical quotes and the address of the Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei, said she was shocked by the reaction. "It was just our intent to uphold our rights as small business owners to choose our clientele," she said. "All the hate, the threats of burning my children, the threats of me being murdered, came out because of a very businesslike straightforward letter I sent. The crowd of tolerance and diversity is not so tolerant."
Landscaper Under Fire for Refusing to Work for Gays By MONICA RHOR, AP
HOUSTON (Nov. 10) - A few short weeks ago, Garden Guy was just a mom-and-pop landscaping business that promoted itself as "making Houston beautiful since 1991" and promised to treat its customers with respect and honesty. Since then, though, the business has been vilified around the world as a bunch of bigots because its Christian conservative owners refused to do work for a gay couple. Michael Lord and Gary Lackey, a gay couple requesting bids for a landscaping job at their new house, received a polite - and, well, honest - e-mail from Sabrina Farber, a co-owner of Garden Guy: "I need to tell you that we cannot meet with you because we choose not to work for homosexuals."
Stunned, Lackey forwarded the e-mail to 200 friends, asking them not to patronize Garden Guy and urging them to pass the word on to friends and family. "I'm still shocked by the ignorance that exists in today's society," Lackey said in his e-mail. And word was indeed passed on - as fast as the Web could carry it. Within days, the e-mail had been forwarded to thousands of people around the world, and quickly became the subject of heated and often ugly debates on the Internet. Because of the furor, a professional association of landscapers created a nondiscrimination policy.
A forum on the Garden Guy Web site, normally reserved for discussions about landscaping and shrubbery, was bombarded with angry comments and venomous attacks from as far away as Australia. Some people attacked the Farbers' beliefs, threatened the couple and their five children, and said they ought to be sodomized. Others condemned gays as sinners headed toward damnation. Farber, whose company's Web site has long included Biblical quotes and a link to a Web site that opposes gay marriage, said she was shocked by the reaction. "It was just our intent to uphold our rights as small business owners to choose our clientele," she said. "All the hate, the threats of sodomizing my children, the threats of me being murdered, came out because of a very businesslike straightforward e-mail I sent. The crowd of tolerance and diversity is not so tolerant."
So people thinking homosexuality is wrong is stuck in the stone age?
People that have morals are stuck in the stone age?
No, I was referring to things we USED to think were right & wrong. Turned out WE were wrong. Used to marry little girls. Used to stone people. Used to beat women. Used to crucify people. Used to burn people at the stake.
Originally posted by Patrick: On the contrary, this thread is revealing how much further we need to go to escape the dark ages.
Actually way back in history gays were FAR more accepted than today.. Unacceptability has risen in proportion with christianity because they have strong values which counter popular belief. Drinking and fire arms and abortion are good examples of christian crusades.
You do.. but if you have opinions against a gay lifestyles your BUSINESS had better serve gays as equally as you serve anyone else. OR ELSE your business may be sued in court.
You ARE entitled to your opinion John but if you use your business to propogate your hate then you may be in for a rude awakening.
Then YOU will fall.
As long as we're speaking hypothetically, Bill, you own a very nice, exclusive restaurant. I'd like to sit in the most aesthetically pleasing area, but the sign says "NO Smoking". What are you going to do when I lite up?.
Additionally, I've come in wearing no shoes and no shirt, while your sign plainly states: "No Shirt - No Shoes - No Service!". But, it is my right to go without shoes and shirt. After all, that's the natural order. I was born without them.
Would you 'discriminate' against me, or, would you defend my 'right' to smoke and not wear the treads and threads.
Cliff, many of us here in this thread understand completely what you're getting at. Unfortunately, many who NEED to see the point are blinded by their own insecurities. Sad but true.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 11-13-2006).]
A completely fabricated news story that is in no way related is ludicrous.
To accept the premise that homosexual lifestyles and race are the same things is to say that humans have no control over their natural instincts and that simply is not a fact. If I have to accept that because one is homosexual they "can't control it" then I must be allowed to succumb to MY natural instincts which is to mate with any female that I feel attracted to in order to carry on my bloodline, and I can't be faulted or discriminated against for doing it.
Just like the ANIMALS in my pasture do.
John Stricker
quote
Originally posted by Cliff Pennock:
Nothing ever changes.
Landscaper Under Fire for Refusing to Work for Blacks By MONICA RHOR, AP
BATON ROUGE (Nov. 10, 1860) - A few short months ago, Cotton Guy was just a mom-and-pop landscaping business that promoted itself as "making Baton Rouge beautiful since 1791" and promised to treat its customers with respect and honesty. Since then, though, the business has been vilified around the United States as a bunch of bigots because its Roman Catholic owners refused to do work for a black couple. Michael Jones and Feya Smith, a black couple requesting bids for a landscaping job at their new house, received a polite - and, well, honest - post from Sabrina Farber, a co-owner of Cotton Guy: "I need to tell you that we cannot meet with you because we choose not to work for colored people."
Stunned, Jones forwarded the post to 200 friends, asking them not to patronize Cotton Guy and urging them to pass the word on to friends and family. "I'm still shocked by the ignorance that exists in today's society," Jones said in his post. And word was indeed passed on - as fast as the post roads could carry it. Within months, the post had been forwarded to thousands of people around the United States, and quickly became the subject of heated and often ugly debates on gatherings. Because of the furor, a professional association of landscapers created a nondiscrimination policy.
A messageboard on the Cotton Guy building, normally reserved for discussions about landscaping and shrubbery, was bombarded with angry comments and venomous attacks from as far away as Pennsylvania. Some people attacked the Farbers' beliefs, threatened the couple and their five children, and said they ought to be lynched. Others condemned blacks as sinners headed toward damnation. Farber, whose company's messageboard has long included quotes from the Old Testament and an address of a fraternity that opposes black people, said she was shocked by the reaction. "It was just our intent to uphold our rights as small business owners to choose our clientele," she said. "All the hate, the threats of lynching my children, the threats of me being murdered, came out because of a very businesslike straightforward post I sent. The crowd of tolerance and diversity is not so tolerant."
Originally posted by texasfiero: As long as we're speaking hypothetically, Bill, you own a very nice, exclusive restaurant. I'd like to sit in the most aesthetically pleasing area, but the sign says "NO Smoking". What are you going to do when I lite up?.
THAT has nothing to do with this issue. Pole smokers have nothing to do with ciggarette smokers.
quote
Additionally, I've come in wearing no shoes and no shirt, while your sign plainly states: "No Shirt - No Shoes - No Service!". But, it is my right to go without shoes and shirt. After all, that's the natural order. I was born without them.
Again that has nothing to do with this ussue.....
quote
Would you 'discriminate' against me, or, would you defend my 'right' to smoke and not wear the treads and threads.
Smoking and aparel though can be used as bias are not discrimination. If you are NAKED I can not enter your house and repair your computer until you are "properly dressed" What that is I have no idea but I don't want to see your johnson so cover it up or I wonte be fixing your computer.
If it was so "accepted" then tell me, Bill, which civilization allowed and encouraged GAY MARRIAGE?
John Stricker
quote
Originally posted by 84Bill:
Actually way back in history gays were FAR more accepted than today.. Unacceptability has risen in proportion with christianity because they have strong values which counter popular belief. Drinking and fire arms and abortion are good examples of christian crusades.
?
