Perhaps I'm a nudist and prefer to be in my house naked. It's my house, you can't refuse to work on my computer (unless you are discriminating against nudists).
John Stricker
quote
Originally posted by 84Bill:
Smoking and aparel though can be used as bias are not discrimination. If you are NAKED I can not enter your house and repair your computer until you are "properly dressed" What that is I have no idea but I don't want to see your johnson so cover it up or I wonte be fixing your computer.
Which has been my point all along. I (and a few others) see no difference in the reasoning behind discriminating for any reason. Gay, black, Jew, whatever. It is same old "clasification" of groups of peoples. That, in & of itself, is wrong. Becouse who knows WHAT "group" is next? Me? You? Your children?
Smoking and aparel though can be used as bias are not discrimination. If you are NAKED I can not enter your house and repair your computer until you are "properly dressed" What that is I have no idea but I don't want to see your johnson so cover it up or I wonte be fixing your computer.
Hairy chest... well
But it does. It is a matter of 'choice', some would call "rights". It's something I don't HAVE to do; not something I was born with and can't change. It is my CHOICE and you don't have the right to limit my choices because I have the 'right' to go without shoes and shirt if I so chose. If I want to smoke a cigarette, it is my CHOICE. The reference to POLE smokers was ridiculous and I wasn't talking about you coming into MY house. I was talking about doing business with you in your place of business, where you invited me by hanging a sign and opening the door.
[This message has been edited by texasfiero (edited 11-13-2006).]
Which has been my point all along. I (and a few others) see no difference in the reasoning behind discriminating for any reason. Gay, black, Jew, whatever. It is same old "clasification" of groups of peoples. That, in & of itself, is wrong. Becouse who knows WHAT "group" is next? Me? You? Your children?
If it was so "accepted" then tell me, Bill, which civilization allowed and encouraged GAY MARRIAGE?
John Stricker
I believe the romans were almost that progressive but I don't know for sure. I do know the gay lifestyle was VERY much a part of the culture and hermapordites were reveared.
Originally posted by texasfiero: But it does. It is a matter of 'choice', some would call "rights". It's something I don't HAVE to do; not something I was born with and can't change. It is my CHOICE and you don't have the right to limit my choices because I have the 'right' to go without shoes and shirt if I so chose. If I want to smoke a cigarette, it is my CHOICE. The reference to POLE smokers was ridiculous.
Well I suppose you are right.. I wouldn't mind smoking nakid in a fine resterunt.. In fact I'd do it just for the effect.
Perhaps I'm a nudist and prefer to be in my house naked. It's my house, you can't refuse to work on my computer (unless you are discriminating against nudists).
John Stricker
Thats according to my COMPANIES policy.. Myself, I could care less. I suppose I could quit if I felt strongly enough.
[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 11-13-2006).]
If you don't know then you should say "None that I know of". Then you'd be correct.
There has been NO recorded civilization that has allowed gay MARRIAGE. Homosexuality has been tolerated, but never allowed to be married. Not surprisingly, as the morals of the civilizations changed to accept more deviancies, the civilizations went into decline.
You have a grasp of history, Bill. I know you do. You should have known this. Or did you, and just CHOOSE to not acknowledge it?
John Stricker
quote
Originally posted by 84Bill:
I believe the romans were almost that progressive but I don't know for sure. I do know the gay lifestyle was VERY much a part of the culture and hermapordites were reveared.
Bit the topic isnt about gay marriage.. it's about discrimination.
quote
Originally posted by jstricker:
If you don't know then you should say "None that I know of". Then you'd be correct.
There has been NO recorded civilization that has allowed gay MARRIAGE. Homosexuality has been tolerated, but never allowed to be married. Not surprisingly, as the morals of the civilizations changed to accept more deviancies, the civilizations went into decline.
You have a grasp of history, Bill. I know you do. You should have known this. Or did you, and just CHOOSE to not acknowledge it?
So you willingly work for a company that discriminates? Interesting.
John Stricker
Well.. the alleged discrimination hasent been an issue yet so no, I don't have a problem with it.
Though.. I have seen the desktops pictures of some peoples computers and they are quite graphic.. and the gays.. I keep bottles of hand sanitizer in the car.
To accept the premise that homosexual lifestyles and race are the same things is to say that humans have no control over their natural instincts and that simply is not a fact. If I have to accept that because one is homosexual they "can't control it" then I must be allowed to succumb to MY natural instincts which is to mate with any female that I feel attracted to in order to carry on my bloodline, and I can't be faulted or discriminated against for doing it.
OMG.
I'm sorry, but you people scare the crap out of me. And I'm truly sorry I got into this discussion, even with only two posts. I probably should have stayed out of it but I'm so incredibly and utterly blown away by some of the things I read here - and written by people of whom I never expected it. My comparison might be nonsense to you, but to us, to most europeans, this is incomprehensible. And I'm not sure yet what to do with it. I really wish I had never seen this thread because it has completely changed the way I see certain people.
I'm also not sure yet what to do with the thread itself since I'm pretty sure noone will change anyone else's opinion on this subject, and it will only get more heated.
Bill, if you're referring to the ancient Greeks and/or Romans, then that was before "The Dark Ages".
For my part, I am refering to "The Dark Ages" as less a time period, and more a state of beliefs. Not ignorence as much as a refusal to accept the posibility that the bassis of those beliefs may be rooted in falsehoods or self-gratifying traditions. Not ALL truths that WERE, are.
[This message has been edited by Boondawg (edited 11-13-2006).]
I do not see why it is so offensive to you that I fully except gays as part of society, respect their right to be gay, will do business with them, I have friends and even family that are gay BUT I DO NOT think it is wise to let them baby sit my grandchildren and tuck them in their beds at night. So F'ing what. It's like gays won't be happy until everyone is gay! You want to do it? fine.
It's not so much that I find it offensive as ignorant and incorrect. I look forward to reading your source, but I don't think I'd take the work of the New Yorker over that of the AMA Journal.
Do you think I would be right or wrong if I said, "I don't think it's wise to let black people near children. They are a bajillion times more likely to be cannibals."
Like I said, I'm not trying to change your opinion, just correct what appear to be incorrect assumptions and statistics.
Originally posted by Cliff Pennock: I'm also not sure yet what to do with the thread itself since I'm pretty sure noone will change anyone else's opinion on this subject, and it will only get more heated.
Change doesn't come by those who argue, it only comes to the un-embattled silent whose awareness has been heightened by it.
Its not the present I am arguing with but the future I am speeking to.
...but I'm so incredibly and utterly blown away by some of the things I read here - and written by people of whom I never expected it.
Yes, it is upsetting when that happens. There are two people in this thread who I like a lot, but who I refuse to debate this topic with. One of these people I had to state my reservations (about arguing) to in this thread, and the other person has fortunately seen fit to ignore my posts as I've ignored his. It's tough when we don't see eye to eye with our friends, but it happens. At some point we have to decide in these situations if we wish to remain friends, but so far, I'd prefer to do that and leave the lines of communication open.
In a debate such as this there are THREE (3) sides you can be on.
1) There is absolutely nothing wrong with homosexuality and you will work to make sure it is accepted in society and given every protection given to race, sex, and age. 2) You don't agree that homosexuality is normal and don't wish to be associated with it (for whatever reason) but really don't care what people do as long as they leave you out of it. 3) You don't agree that homosexuality is normal and in fact want it abolished legally and persecuted in every way possible.
I am of the #2 camp. I think it's wrong. I think it's an abhorrent practice. But whatever YOU think of it and YOU do with it I really don't give a flying leap as long as *I* don't have to be associated with it in any way, shape, or form.
This is not a militant attitude. This is not an attitude of persecution. It is an attitude of LEAVE ME ALONE. Practice whatever deviancies you wish, I honestly and truthfully do not care, but do not MAKE me associate myself with it or the people that practice it. Let that be MY CHOICE.
I don't understand why an attitude of "let me live MY LIFE and you can live YOURS" would "scare the crap" out of you.
What SHOULD scare the crap out of you is that people with religious convictions that politely declined to bid a job were responded to with death threats and suggestions that their children be sodomized. This is a part of the group you say I should be more tolerant of.
John Stricker
PS: and to be honest, I've tried very hard to remain civil and for the most part so has everyone else. If this debate turns ugly, I'll be gone, but as for now, I've actually enjoyed the "nudist" barbs with 84Bill and I'll be he's had a smile or two on his face as well.
quote
Originally posted by Cliff Pennock:
OMG.
I'm sorry, but you people scare the crap out of me. And I'm truly sorry I got into this discussion, even with only two posts. I probably should have stayed out of it but I'm so incredibly and utterly blown away by some of the things I read here - and written by people of whom I never expected it. My comparison might be nonsense to you, but to us, to most europeans, this is incomprehensible. And I'm not sure yet what to do with it. I really wish I had never seen this thread because it has completely changed the way I see certain people.
I'm also not sure yet what to do with the thread itself since I'm pretty sure noone will change anyone else's opinion on this subject, and it will only get more heated.
There have been a number of references to 'Christians' and their 'hatred' of homosexuality. Most Christians believe that it is sin and upon that belief they attempt to control it in society as with alcohol, prostitution, and gambling. We believe that participating in these, among some other activities is degrading and lead to destruction of society. Whether they result in health issues (aids), poverty (gambling), or in many cases theft, taking a human life or whatever, our society suffers. Romans 6:23 says that the wages of sin is death. These acts affect our country financially. The costs of prisons, law enforcement, and health care devastate our finances. I've not event mentioned the destruction of family life. We are paying a horrible toll for the 'rights' we've bestowed under the fear of discrimination.
What I'd like to ask here, and several of you have accused Christians of 'hatred' and 'discrimination', why ONLY Christians. Here is a link http://www.alinaam.org.za/library/homos.htm
Why don't you also attack other 'religions' of hatred of gays? Are you biased negatively toward Christians?
Jesus said, "they will hate you because they hated me".
[This message has been edited by texasfiero (edited 11-13-2006).]
I'm sorry, but you people scare the crap out of me. And I'm truly sorry I got into this discussion, even with only two posts. I probably should have stayed out of it but I'm so incredibly and utterly blown away by some of the things I read here - and written by people of whom I never expected it. My comparison might be nonsense to you, but to us, to most europeans, this is incomprehensible. And I'm not sure yet what to do with it. I really wish I had never seen this thread because it has completely changed the way I see certain people.
I'm also not sure yet what to do with the thread itself since I'm pretty sure noone will change anyone else's opinion on this subject, and it will only get more heated.
So for know I'm simply out of this discussion.
For my part, you can lock it down. But I'm sure it will die on it's own. With nothing settled.
I'm fine with that. I never expect to change minds, nor do I try. (Although, I must admit, I wait for the day when someone says to me, "WOW! You really opened my eyes to a new way of thinking about this. I think I need to re-examine how I look at that. Thank you." It's a selfish, secret wish I dream about, just for me.)
For those here that I dissagree with, I may not admire you beliefs, but I do the strength with which you hold them. But it may be benifitcal for you to loosen your grip on them just a little every once in awhile to allow new ways of thinking to enter into your belief system. It takes nothing from you, and may add to you a new, less strict way of looking at things.
Being flexable is what has kept this spiecies around as long as it has been.
Thanks for the interesting viewpoints in conversation. I'm out.
No harm, no foul.
P.S. No Humans were rated in the particapation of this debate.
I'm sorry, but you people scare the crap out of me. And I'm truly sorry I got into this discussion, even with only two posts. I probably should have stayed out of it but I'm so incredibly and utterly blown away by some of the things I read here - and written by people of whom I never expected it. My comparison might be nonsense to you, but to us, to most europeans, this is incomprehensible. And I'm not sure yet what to do with it. I really wish I had never seen this thread because it has completely changed the way I see certain people.
I'm also not sure yet what to do with the thread itself since I'm pretty sure noone will change anyone else's opinion on this subject, and it will only get more heated.
So for know I'm simply out of this discussion.
Your reaction is why people like me reply to threads like this... we don't want the record to show stuff like this without a response.
Originally posted by texasfiero: Why don't you also attack other 'religions' of hatred of gays? Are you biased negatively toward Christians?
Jesus said, "they will hate you because they hated me".
I don't hear Jews saying they wont do buisness with homos.. They don't care.. gimme the money and burn in hell ya fags... just make out your will and make me the beneficiary. Money = good People = good and bad but people = money.. money = good.
Ya.. thats a stereotype.
[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 11-13-2006).]
I don't hear Jews saying they wont do buisness with homos.. They don't care.. gimme the money and burn in hell ya fags... just make out your will and make me the beneficiary. Money = good People = good and bad but people = money.. money = good.
Ya.. thats a stereotype.
But Jews aren't hated, and have NEVER been hated because they're Christians. They're hated because they're JEWS
Originally posted by jstricker: PS: and to be honest, I've tried very hard to remain civil and for the most part so has everyone else. If this debate turns ugly, I'll be gone, but as for now, I've actually enjoyed the "nudist" barbs with 84Bill and I'll be he's had a smile or two on his face as well.
"It's easy to blame the sandspurr for your pain and allot harder to admit you were the one that stepped on it. If you don't like barbs in your feet then it might be best to watch your step. You either accept it or you don't."
"Nobody likes waking up from a bad dream and they definatly don't like waking up from a good one..."
I keep bottles of hand sanitizer in the car.
It's tough when we don't see eye to eye with our friends, but it happens. At some point we have to decide in these situations if we wish to remain friends, but so far, I'd prefer to do that and leave the lines of communication open.
