Originally posted by Fiero5: I get the feeling that some members seem to think that some actually do have dyno slips but now don't seem to want to admit it and show them for whatever reasons.
as they should (or shouldn't) - you wanna give it a go, come get some. I dont have to give anyone squat. anything I say can and will be used against me on the track. your insecurities are NOT my problem.
not directed specificly at you - directed at the same people you referance in your post.
but - anyways - what this says is: if they dont have a dyno slip - they are not done yet. or - its just a crate swap, and their power is anywhere between the rated power to 30% below that. or even lower - if they cannot manage to provide decent intake & exhaust systems to the crate motor - which is implied for MOST Fiero V8 setups.
has anyone managed to put a reasonable exhaust system on a SBC Fiero? most crate motors rated power has an assumption of decent exhaust manifolds.
That is incorrect. I have a crate engine rated at 355hp and it puts down 309 rwhp. That is only a 12-13% loss which is easily attributed to typical driveline loss of a transaxle. The thing is that some don't take into account is when things get modified power changes. If you take a crate engine designed to have a specific set-up and you change the set-up, Then you have no clue what the power is and depending on the mod, you could lose power. You really do not need a dyno run to tune the car for typical street driving with a standard crate engine. I doubt any crate engine that is set-up as recommended would have a 30% loss in power. Most crate engines should be +/- 5% of their rated power. If not then something else like a poor mod or a bad equipment is the problem.
The dyno is for someone who is looking to get the most out of their engine or someone who has modded the engine enough where it does need to be fine-tuned just to run correctly.
BTW ~ It's not just V-8's. We have many folks here who mod stock and other swapped engines and do not tune them on a dyno.
Originally posted by Oreif: That is incorrect. I have a crate engine rated at 355hp and it puts down 309 rwhp. That is only a 12-13% loss which is easily attributed to typical driveline loss of a transaxle. The thing is that some don't take into account is when things get modified power changes. If you take a crate engine designed to have a specific set-up and you change the set-up, Then you have no clue what the power is and depending on the mod, you could lose power. You really do not need a dyno run to tune the car for typical street driving with a standard crate engine. I doubt any crate engine that is set-up as recommended would have a 30% loss in power. Most crate engines should be +/- 5% of their rated power. If not then something else like a poor mod or a bad equipment is the problem.
The dyno is for someone who is looking to get the most out of their engine or someone who has modded the engine enough where it does need to be fine-tuned just to run correctly.
BTW ~ It's not just V-8's. We have many folks here who mod stock and other swapped engines and do not tune them on a dyno.
really? your power isnt between its rated power & 30% below that? sounds like it is. it is VERY easy to lose ALOT of power thru poor intake & exhaust. like you said: as recommended. here is an example otherwise: http://videos.streetfire.ne...389-9a1b01899174.htm
really? your power isnt between its rated power & 30% below that? sounds like it is. it is VERY easy to lose ALOT of power thru poor intake & exhaust. like you said: as recommended. here is an example otherwise: http://videos.streetfire.ne...389-9a1b01899174.htm
Sorry, I was referring to the comment about the exhaust for a V-8 swap. Meaning that I don't have any power loss due to poor exhaust. I guess I should have stated that better.
As for the video, The engine was modified using a TPI instead of a carb like it was designed to use. The 350 HO really doesn't work well with a TPI attached to it. (I also see Shaunna is messing with people's video's again. Kind of pathetic don't you think?)
Originally posted by Oreif: Sorry, I was referring to the comment about the exhaust for a V-8 swap. Meaning that I don't have any power loss due to poor exhaust. I guess I should have stated that better.
As for the video, The engine was modified using a TPI instead of a carb like it was designed to use. The 350 HO really doesn't work well with a TPI attached to it. (I also see Shaunna is messing with people's video's again. Kind of pathetic don't you think?)
yup - sure is
as far as I can tell, he's the whole cause of this thread....again.....but, so be it. I could give a leaky squat either way. I like my car. ALOT. no internet weenie of any stripe is gonna change that.
Originally posted by Oreif: The engine is rated at 355hp by GM, If I say I have 355hp and if I did not dyno it, would that be misleading?
Yes, it is misleading. It's rated at 355 horsepower in a certain configuration. You probably don't have the same intake, exhaust, etc that GM used when rating the engine. So your configuration could be substantially greater or less than what GM rated it at. We all know that tuning is the difference between a well-running car one that runs poorly.
Yes, it is misleading. It's rated at 355 horsepower in a certain configuration. You probably don't have the same intake, exhaust, etc that GM used when rating the engine. So your configuration could be substantially greater or less than what GM rated it at. We all know that tuning is the difference between a well-running car one that runs poorly.
The intake is the same. It comes with the engine. I am using an Edelbrock carb instead of a Holley but generally carbs of the same size but different manufactures do not make any difference when tuned to the engine. I personally don't think it is misleading because the 355 hp rating is at the crank and the 309 hp is at the wheels. There will always be drivetrain loss which depending on the type of trans and the particular set-up can be anywhere from 10% to 20% for a manual and up to 30% for an automatic. (Generally speaking) I may not have the same exhaust manifolds or set-up that they used, But it must be very close in flow since there seems to be very little (if any) loss due to the exhaust.
Although a new Corvette is rated at 405hp, Do you really think if you run the car on a chassis dyno that it will read 405hp? (They are running 310 to 345 to the wheels on chassis dyno's per the Corvette forums.)
[This message has been edited by Oreif (edited 01-10-2008).]
ever see the movie Spinal Tap? it goes to 11. you can spout all your stats & truth all day long - dont matter. that one had a V8. it goes to 11. yours is cute - but that had a V8.
Yup, American car guys can be pretty single mindedly blind about anything but what they think is best.
Doesn't really matter what engine configuration is, the performance of the car is what is paramount. There are a lot of 6 cylinder high performance engines around today - and 4 cylinder! Anyone managed to stuff a Subaru WRX engine into a Fiero yet. Or an Eagle Talon turbo?
As an aside, I once couldn't resist doing the cylinder thing on a guy I knew. He owned a Lamborghini Gallardo - V-10, beatiful car, if he only hadn't insisted on talking about it all the time. I finally allowed as how it was a nice car, but I'd always had a hard time thinking of anything less than 12 cylinders as a real' Lamborghini. Shut him up, at least for that evening. He subsequently ended up selling it as he just didn't get much use out of it - no fun to drive in town, couldn't leave it parked for worrying about whether some envious git would key it, and he didn't get a chance for a road trip very often. (I feel the same way about a couple of my cars I don't use much, but I can't bring myself to part with them!)
The intake is the same. It comes with the engine. I am using an Edelbrock carb instead of a Holley but generally carbs of the same size but different manufactures do not make any difference when tuned to the engine. I personally don't think it is misleading because the 355 hp rating is at the crank and the 309 hp is at the wheels. There will always be drivetrain loss which depending on the type of trans and the particular set-up can be anywhere from 10% to 20% for a manual and up to 30% for an automatic. (Generally speaking) I may not have the same exhaust manifolds or set-up that they used, But it must be very close in flow since there seems to be very little (if any) loss due to the exhaust.
OK, Dave let me see if I got this right......
You have the same exact car that we put together for you here.
You've been drivine it for more than 2 years?
It has a stock ZZ4 Chevy crate engine, with the factory rating of 355 Brake hp at the F/Wheel?
It has off the shelf Sanderson Headers, it doesn't have tuned headers?
It has the same 2" Diameter dual exhaust that we put on it. Those pipes were bent on my pipe bending machine here, what some people call crush bent exhaust (even tho my dies don't put the wrinkles in)?
It has the same dual 2" cats that we put on it here with dual 2" resonator tips?
It has a full unmodified trunk area, with no mods to the chassis to clear the true dual exhaust system?
So this Cletus built car with non tuned headers, crush bent true dual 2" exhaust bent tight enough to get out from under the car without mods to the chassis or trunk, is making 309 hp at the wheels & running low 12's???????
All these experts say it can't be done. Why is that?
All these experts say you can't rely on the factory HP rating. Why is that?
i know for a fact that i do NOT have the fastest fiero in KC. there is a 3800SC that easily beats me in the 1/4 mile and on a road course. but it has some unknown glitch that they have to depress the gas pedal a little while turning the key to get it to start.
i can reach in the window and turn the key for about 1/3 of a second and my car is rumbling. that makes me feel like i did a good job putting my engine in. so i'm happy
EDIT (there's another guy with a N* in town, he wont race. but he might beat me too)
[This message has been edited by buddycraigg (edited 01-11-2008).]
Nah--Just commmenting on what I have read over the years. I mean I maybe wrong but I can only go off what I have read and seen in others post. I have nothing against a V-8 swap, I am working on an LS4 swap now. Nothing like a nice FI V-8 on a strong auto trans that can handle the power and still get 27 plus MPG.
If you did a SBC swap in 1990, you were pretty much limited to a TPI 350 with about 245 HP max unless you started modding it. If you put a 250 HP engine in the car, you should expect about 200 HP at the rear wheels. That's not a design flaw or problem with Archie's kit. It's totally dependant on the engine the owner chooses to use in the swap.
When the LT1 came out in the '91 Corvette, it's 300 HP rating was a tremendous leap over earlier engines.
Today, you can buy a new SBC with anything from about 250 HP to over 500 HP. That lets the owner choose their budget and horsepower level. We have many more options today than we've had in the last 20 years. And not everyone who does a V8 swap has to have the meanest, baddest engine on the planet. For some people, throw in a 250 HP engine and they're happy. That's more than a stock 3800SC and over 100 more HP than a stock 2.8.
Back several years ago, I had the opportunity to spend some time behind the wheel of a LM1 powered Indy Pace Car that Archie had. That was coupled to a 4 speed and that engine combination seemed to be something that should have been an option from Pontiac. I believe that the LM1 was rated at 230 or 240 HP so it wasn't a monster high horsepower car......just a nice, clean, smooth powerful engine. It felt like it belonged in the car. It felt like a stock setup. The 4 speed seemed to have the proper shift points for the power band yet when you stepped on the gas the car just took off. I also spent a bit of time behind the wheel of a carbed V-8 in another Fiero and that was rated a bit higher in HP and rumbled a bit more than that LM1 but that, too, felt great in the car. Kristie ( my honey ) really wants a V-8 Fiero and eventually we'll have one. It's not going to be the fastest car by any means, but I personally prefer the SBC rumble over the 3800 series. Nothing against them as I have many friends with 3800/3800SC motors and they are really nice setups, but for me it's the SBC. No big deal.....I'm just a paint guy. My word doesn't mean much anyway. Just thought I'd throw that out there.
In the last 20 years we have built about 450 V-8 cars for customers.
Everyone of those cars were built with the engines the customer specified. With intake systems & exhaust systems that those customers approved.
Everyone of those customers were happy enough with the work we did for them that they paid their bill in full when they picked up the completed cars.
What would you suggest that I do?
Should I contact everyone of them and get a notarized affidavit from them that they were happy & satisfied when they rec'd their car, happy & satisfied with the years of service they've had since getting their car & a statement that they guarantee they will be happy & satisfied with all the future use they get from their car.
Would that be what it takes to get 5 or 6 Internet bashers who've never built, driven or rode in one of my cars from talking trash?
Well I for one would give you a signed paper! I love this car and with the LT1 and 6speed (IMHO automatics are no fun) I have reached 30MPG on a tank of gas and I have left people eating dust with their mouth wide open. No Dyno or 1/4 time slip needed for me to know this is a fun car that I love to drive!
Don't pay too much attention to Stephen.... he just likes to stir up trouble every now and again. When he gets his LS4 on the road then he will officially be a V-8 lover.
Originally posted by Archie: Should I contact everyone of them and get a notarized affidavit from them that they were happy & satisfied when they rec'd their car, happy & satisfied with the years of service they've had since getting their car & a statement that they guarantee they will be happy & satisfied with all the future use they get from their car. Archie
It won't work. Those naysayers would say you photoshopped them anyways.
BTW, those that like to catagorize, put me in the column of appreciates Archies work. Don't think I want a sbc but you have to admire someone who loves what hes does, has been doing it for years and has many happy customers.
[This message has been edited by Gokart Mozart (edited 01-12-2008).]
How is what I said stupid? I said I am only going off what I have read here on the Forum and other internet sites. I mean you said it yourself that alot of SBC Fiero owners dont post there times. If they dont post there times/dyno # then I can only go off what I read and that equals about a handful or so. Its okay though CHIP!!!!!
Don't pay too much attention to Stephen.... he just likes to stir up trouble every now and again. When he gets his LS4 on the road then he will officially be a V-8 lover.
Keep quite now--You going to ruin everything......Yes once I have my LS4 on the road, I am sure I will love it and the power it has to offer. I think the best part of it will be that I know it will be attached to a trans that I know will handle the HP, still get 27 plus MPG and be a swap that is up to date with technology. And the sound that it will make will be nice also.
ya know, Archie is here to run a business and make a living. If you don't like V8 Fieros, then STFU. Keep it to yourself. I own an automotive business myself, and if someone doesn't like the way I fix BMWs, there are other places for that person to go. but you will not come into my shop or home and insult me. That will get your ass kicked. You younger guys (well, younger than me) don't understand. Back in the day, when you wanted to go fast, you needed a V8. A 14 second car was fast. Turbos sucked. Times have changed. I have adapted, BUT I'd rather hear the rumble of a V8 over the sound of a fart through a bullhorn. It brings back the memories of when muscle cars were muscle cars. If you prefer a 3800, that's fine. If you like a V8, so be it. Dave
------------------ 1987 GT (my toy-see above), 1987 GT (wife's toy), 1986 SE soon to be VR6, certified master technician/shop owner www.njautobahn.com
[This message has been edited by bmwguru (edited 01-12-2008).]
Originally posted by Gokart Mozart: But is it orange, blue or yellow?
I personally prefer Butter Pecan.
------------------ Ron
It's the Soldier, not the reporter Who has given us the freedom of the press. It's the Soldier, not the poet, Who has given us the freedom of speech. It's the Soldier, not the politicians That ensures our right to Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness. It's the Soldier who salutes the flag, Who serves beneath the flag, And whose coffin is draped by the flag.
ya know, Archie is here to run a business and make a living. If you don't like V8 Fieros, then STFU. Keep it to yourself. I own an automotive business myself, and if someone doesn't like the way I fix BMWs, there are other places for that person to go. but you will not come into my shop or home and insult me. That will get your ass kicked. You younger guys (well, younger than me) don't understand. Back in the day, when you wanted to go fast, you needed a V8. A 14 second car was fast. Turbos sucked. Times have changed. I have adapted, BUT I'd rather hear the rumble of a V8 over the sound of a fart through a bullhorn. It brings back the memories of when muscle cars were muscle cars. If you prefer a 3800, that's fine. If you like a V8, so be it. Dave
This is posted here to answer the question for the nice member that started this thread. Here's my answer to the original question:
I believe it might be Archie's "like it or not my way or the highway" attitude that spurs alot of harsh criticism. My personal experiences previous to my PFF membership have been less than pleseant so far, and even less so after I posed the question here to PFF. That among the absence of many obvious upgrades that could be made to the kit (for such a price) has the critics constantly abuzz.
This is posted here to answer the question for the nice member that started this thread. Here's my answer to the original question:
I believe it might be Archie's "like it or not my way or the highway" attitude that spurs alot of harsh criticism. My personal experiences previous to my PFF membership have been less than pleseant so far, and even less so after I posed the question here to PFF. That among the absence of many obvious upgrades that could be made to the kit (for such a price) has the critics constantly abuzz.
"my way or the highway" is the foundation of a smart business. You can't change the way you work to suit everyone else's wants and desires. If you do that, there will be no consistancy with your work/service/products. You have to set a standard and keep to that standard. Otherwise, you will wind up with more confusion and possible lawsuits. Dave
im reluctant to get in this but i wonder what the hp rating on the V8 swaps archie has done has any one dyno'ed the achie swap? dont get me wrong i love a lot of things archie does like the chop top and the bodykits, but im a v6 fan for the sound of the V6 sounds better to me if you like V8s then like tham i DK. i just always wondered what the big deal was about the V8 swap. of course ive seen the videos where they take a V8 fiero and put it on the dyno and it only maks 240hp but i dont know if that is a achie car cause a t-shirt doesent make it true here is the link:
if that is the the real dyno specs i would go with a 3800SC/turbo for power and i would go to archie for the other products that he provides, i wish he supplied more like corbon fiber hoods and decklids? or his own headlight conversion for a stock fiero for thoughs of us that want to stay some what stock? any way thats just my 2 cents love archie but not a big V8 fan, only cause i fell in love with the fiero as a V6 and mine will always be a V6,
so i guess what im saying is
(ARCHIE WHAT IS THE AVRAGE HP RATING ON ONE OF YOUR V8 SWAPS? )
thats just my 2 cents
[This message has been edited by 3.6lvvt6spdgt (edited 01-12-2008).]
This is posted here to answer the question for the nice member that started this thread. Here's my answer to the original question:
I believe it might be Archie's "like it or not my way or the highway" attitude that spurs alot of harsh criticism. My personal experiences previous to my PFF membership have been less than pleseant so far, and even less so after I posed the question here to PFF. That among the absence of many obvious upgrades that could be made to the kit (for such a price) has the critics constantly abuzz.
The BIGGER question that has to be answered is Why do people post links to threads that prove that the person who is posting the links is an utter idiot.
Some people want a peice of me so bad that they post up links to threads that prove that they themselves are a prime reason that threads like this ever get started.
Quick, are you so slow that you don't realize that those 2 threads make you look like you.re totally STUPID??????? Do you not see that in those threads?????
kawana: Go read those threads all the way thru, you'll see what this Archie & Cletus thing is all about.
im reluctant to get in this but i wonder what the hp rating on the V8 swaps archie has done has any one dyno'ed the achie swap? dont get me wrong i love a lot of things archie does like the chop top and the bodykits, but im a v6 fan. and i always wondered what the big deal was about the V8 swap. of course ive seen the veidos where they take a V8 fiero and put it on the dyno and it only maks 240hp but i dont know if that is a achie car cause a t-shirt doesent make it true here is the link:
if that is the the real dyno specs i would go with a 3800SC/turbo and i would go to archie for the other products that he provides, i wish he supplied more like corbon fiber hoods and decklids? or his own headlight conversion for a stock fiero for thoughs of us that want to stay some what stock? any way thats just my 2 cents love archie but not a big V8 fan thats just my 2 cents
Yes, that's a car we built about a year before that video was shot. As you can see the customer was happy with his car. It was only the punks who were shooting the video who weren't happy.
If you want to put in a V6 then go ahead & put it in & enjoy it. But don't do it because of Shaunbag's videos.
im reluctant to get in this but i wonder what the hp rating on the V8 swaps archie has done has any one dyno'ed the achie swap?
The HP on an "Archie swap" depends on what engine the customer chooses to install. If you'd actually read the posts on THIS PAGE, you would have read that Oreif put a ZZ4 crate engine in his Fiero and it's rated at 355 HP and put down 309 RWHP on a dyno.
If he'd used a different engine, the output would be different, even though the swap itself is the same. I don't understand why people can't understand that.
my bad slow poster i think that the lack of good V8 videos helped these bash videos agin i picked the V6 for the sound cause thats what i like the sound of a ve reving up it all boils down to what you like and hey archie keep up the good work and ever think about doing carbon fiber parts for us less aged fiero fans like hoods and decklids?? i want a set but ive heard a lot of bad things about kingdoom custemZ and i cant even email the guy
[This message has been edited by 3.6lvvt6spdgt (edited 01-12-2008).]
my bad slow poster i think that the lack of good V8 videos helped these bash videos
I put one video of my car on youtube and was spammed to the point I took it down. I had planned on putting up some 0 - 60 runs but don't know what the point would be if 2 out of 3 comments are Shawn hating on my car. You try to share some fun and get that kind of crap, it gets old quick.
How much money do you have? Archie builds kits to put SBC engines into Fieros. I have never heard him say he build engines, its up to the costumer to supply the engine.
Originally posted by Gokart Mozart: BTW, those that like to catagorize, put me in the column of appreciates Archies work. Don't think I want a sbc but you have to admire someone who loves what hes does, has been doing it for years and has many happy customers.
Wholeheartedly!
------------------ Ron
It's the Soldier, not the reporter Who has given us the freedom of the press. It's the Soldier, not the poet, Who has given us the freedom of speech. It's the Soldier, not the politicians That ensures our right to Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness. It's the Soldier who salutes the flag, Who serves beneath the flag, And whose coffin is draped by the flag.
im reluctant to get in this but i wonder what the hp rating on the V8 swaps archie has done has any one dyno'ed the achie swap? dont get me wrong i love a lot of things archie does like the chop top and the bodykits, but im a v6 fan for the sound of the V6 sounds better to me if you like V8s then like tham i DK. i just always wondered what the big deal was about the V8 swap. of course ive seen the videos where they take a V8 fiero and put it on the dyno and it only maks 240hp but i dont know if that is a achie car cause a t-shirt doesent make it true here is the link:
if that is the the real dyno specs i would go with a 3800SC/turbo for power and i would go to archie for the other products that he provides, i wish he supplied more like corbon fiber hoods and decklids? or his own headlight conversion for a stock fiero for thoughs of us that want to stay some what stock? any way thats just my 2 cents love archie but not a big V8 fan, only cause i fell in love with the fiero as a V6 and mine will always be a V6,
so i guess what im saying is
(ARCHIE WHAT IS THE AVRAGE HP RATING ON ONE OF YOUR V8 SWAPS? )
thats just my 2 cents
There is no "average" HP rating. It all depends on the engine you as the owner decide to use. As some of the examples, My ZZ4 rated at 355hp put down 309 rwhp, Two other ZZ4's dyno'd 301 rwhp and 309 rwhp. And for the record, Archie did the install on my car and nothing except a tweek to the tuning was done to the car for the dyno runs or the 1/4 mile times. The car has been the exact same from October 2004 until November 2007.
Now the LM1 crate engine is rated roughly 270 hp so on a dyno you will probably put down around 220 rwhp. LT1's range anywhere from 280 to 330 hp at the crank so they will hit 230 to 290 on a dyno. So it all depends on if the owner wants a 270hp LM1 or a 400hp LS2 or any number of different versions of the SBC installed. Also I should note that an auto transaxle will generally have more drivetrain loss than a manual transaxle.
Then there are the mods to the engine that could affect it's output. As an example the 350HO crate engine is rated at 330hp with a carb. But many have found out that the if you toss on a TPI system, You seem to lose about 30-40hp. According to the Hot Rod Forum it has something to do with the cam timing and the TPI set-up not being very compatable. They recommend swapping in a specific Comp Cams camshaft that is more TPI friendly to bring the HP back up where it should be.
The other thing is there are two different dyno's. The Dyno-Jet and the Mustang Dyno. Each one has a different method to read the power and it is a proven fact that the Mustang dyno results are generally lower than the Dyno-jet. I know of a 3.4DOHC motor that was dyno'd on both type. On the dyno-jet he had 173 rwhp, On the Mustang dyno he had 157.7 rwhp. One of the V-8 cars that dyno'd at Daytona last year ran 240hp on the Mustang dyno and 3 weeks later ran 270 on a dyno-jet. As for which dyno is "accurate" is still in debate across many, many forums. Some say the Mustang dyno is more realistic on what the car will see on the street and the Dyno-Jet is more for what it would see on it's "peak" days. Either way it doesn't matter what engine you dyno, There is a difference between the dyno methods.
If you go by the avarage losses between the dyno's a 3800SC rated at 260hp will have roughly 200 rwhp on a Mustang dyno and around 225 hp on a Dyno-jet. So the bottom line is a dyno is very subjective. You need to look at all the info before deciding if the dyno run is accurate. Engine, transaxle, dyno used, conditions, calibration factors, and even what gear is used can affect the output.
As for video's, Many have been removed because the RFT thugs spammed them with bad or insulting comments.
[This message has been edited by Oreif (edited 01-13-2008).]
About the only thing a dyno is good for is tuning. You run repeated runs on the same dyno to evaluate changes made to the car. Running on one dyno, making some tuning changes, then running on another dyno is useless for testing purposes. It's not any better for comparing one car to another.
Wholeheartedly! 
