I would hardly call a ZZ4 a stock motor, its built by GM to be a perforance motor. What car comes with a ZZ4 from the factory in the past 10 years? (or ever for that matter) Take a stock LT1 vs stock 3800SC, I'd say 3800SC, just my opinion. Isn't FieroX supposed to be making some new runs this month with new tires and shocks?
Animal, when you are in a public place anyone can photograph or take videos of you, it's not illegal. If you didn't want Shaun taking a video of your dyno run you could have asked him to leave the premises, but I don't know if you had the authority to do so. You could have asked the owner of the dyno to ask him to leave or to not allow video taping, if you felt your privacy was being invaded. I doubt this would have happen if they are friends with Shaun or weren't in the mood to accomodate you.
Actually, the deal on the dyno with the owner/operator was that Shaun would not be allowed on the premises. The dyno day was just for fun, and it was supposed to be only Fieros. But the owner/operator turned around and scheduled two groups, and he did allow his buddy Shaun to come in and film the proceedings – against objections. Nice guy!
It is sad that a fun event can be blown totally out of proportion, and utilized in such a manner. It seems that some people lack the ability to enjoy life and the companionship of friends.
I didn't build it to run 12s. I don't have a shop budget so I had to just tweak it to where it is for now. I drive it daily, to and from class, I'm a full time student who lives on campus and has a great life. There is more to myself than sinking money into this car.
The point is that Archie is getting paid thousands of dollars to put built up engines into cars and they can't run 12s, let alone do so on a daily driver and get as good as gas mileage I do. When these crate motors are putting down in the 200s to the wheel, there is certainly a problem.
For what its worth, I will be MUCH faster than 12s this summer, because yes, 12 seconds is slow and I can hardly stand driving this pig. The 3800 part is right but you were missing the T70 extension.
I can see your point, but I don't think Archie said that his cars will run 12's Did he? Maybe I didn't read that part
IThe point is that Archie is getting paid thousands of dollars to put built up engines into cars and they can't run 12s, let alone do so on a daily driver and get as good as gas mileage I do. When these crate motors are putting down in the 200s to the wheel, there is certainly a problem.
Archie isn't getting paid thousands of dollars to put built up engines into cars. He gets paid for installing a SBC V-8 of the customers choice into a Fiero with his kit. No where on his website does he claim to build up engines.
Crate engines vary. Some are rated as low as 250hp. So why do you find it strange that a V-8 rated at 250hp puts down say 210rwhp? I've seen a stock 3.4DOHC put down 157rwhp and a stock 3800SC put down 177rwhp, Does that mean that the parts used to install the engine are defective??
Oreif, true, they're not "built" up. A lot of the cars that are posted about frequently are gm "performance" engines which are 'built up' by GM. GM states these engines should get your car into low 12second territory. Its surprising that they lose over 100hp to the wheels from what GM rates them at. That is all I'm saying. That is an issue which I feel should be addressed with his setups.
btw Oreif, I like your car, was nice when it was 3.4 too.
[This message has been edited by Jncomutt (edited 03-14-2008).]
I would hardly call a ZZ4 a stock motor, its built by GM to be a perforance motor.
It is built on an assembly line like every other stock GM engine. I said "basically" stock, meaning they assembled an engine using mass-produced parts. They are not hand built and tuned engines. Technically it is a "stock" 350 H.O. with aluminum heads.
Yes it is a "performance" engine rated at 355hp. It is not a max power all out racing engine. It is a performance engine designed and built by GM to be used as a reliable engine for a streetrod. Nowhere does it say that it's an all out drag racing motor.
I respect that, and the fact you have real dyno, 1/4, and engine numbers. You actually backed your talk up, and I respect that, plus your car does look tight. Hope to meet you this summer.
Oreif, true, they're not "built" up. A lot of the cars that are posted about frequently are gm "performance" engines which are 'built up' by GM. GM states these engines should get your car into low 12second territory. Its surprising that they lose over 100hp to the wheels from what GM rates them at. That is all I'm saying. That is an issue which I feel should be addressed with his setups.
btw Oreif, I like your car, was nice when it was 3.4 too.
GM states they should get you in the 12 second territory? Are they referring to a 1500lbs streetrod that the engine was designed for?
They don't "lose" 100hp at the wheels because of the kit. As an example, a ZZ4 is rated at 355hp. My car has dyno'd 309 rwhp. so that's a 46hp loss from crank to the road. That's a little over 12% loss thru the driveline. If there was a problem with the kit or workmanship that causes a power loss, don't you think it would show up on all swaps? BTW ~ For the record, two other ZZ4 powered Fiero's have had dyno's as well. One ran a 306 rwhp and the other ran a 309 rwhp.
Originally posted by Emc209i: Oh nohz you win.. Being that most of you older folks relate speed to power, and power to rotating pistons... I guess so. But I think 12 seconds is slow for any drag car, regardless of rotating mass.
I can agree that 12 seconds isn't very impressive FOR ANY DRAG CAR. I don't know of many V8 owners who built their Fiero to be a drag car, though.
But I do love how your youthful ignorance lets you know how "older folks" think. Just think, some 2 year old kid sucking his thumb is going to be talking smack to you in about 20 years telling you how much you don't get it and how they know so much more than you do. It'll probably hold as much credibility with you as you do with me.
[This message has been edited by Formula88 (edited 03-15-2008).]
Show me one other Fiero with a unmodifed off the shelf engine of smaller displacement running 12 seconds. There are none. But I know of at least three ZZ4 powered Fiero's and all three have posted actual timeslips showing 12 second runs.
Not trying to be a smarass but Will did it with a stock N* running a 275hp chip. I hope to be deep into the 12s this summer if I still have my car. Northstars are probably the only non SBC that will get a fiero into the 12s stock.
This is such a Retarded Argument. It has been proven that the most of SBC Fieros on this board are boat anchors and there are WAY easier, and less expensive performance options out there for the Fiero. Most SBC'ers and the guys in the Good Ol boys Nascar ogling, beer drinking, unsophisticates shelling out 10 Grand for an Archie install do it for the sound and the attention. They're not true Performance enthusiasts, but revel in the world that to the respectable viewing public that V8 automatically means "FAST".
To me the sound of fast today is a 1800 Lb, 218hp Lotus Exige S Blowing your SBC doors off at 100 MPH... Through a corner.
There's no use arguing about it anymore. They can be wrong and ignorant all they want. True Fiero performance enthusiasts are using better and more efficient engines for this Italian inspired sports car. They are using the replacement for Displacement, Boost. They want the experience of the exotics they grew up idolizing, like The Ferrari F40, Lamborghini Countach or the Lotus Esprit Turbo, instead of grandpa's 57 Chevy. Speed and handling are everything to this type of person, who will go to the easiest route to success in that area. There are some people who see a Mid 13 second SBC as a waste of an awesome platform, and there are some people who are contented with mediocrity.
You can't make everyone see your way, so let them build what they want. It's time to leave this argument alone and go our own separate ways on this. The best way to change mindsets is to lead by example. Let see more Technology, and less stone age.
This is such a Retarded Argument. It has been proven that the most of SBC Fieros on this board are boat anchors and there are WAY easier, and less expensive performance options out there for the Fiero. Most SBC'ers and the guys in the Good Ol boys Nascar ogling, beer drinking, unsophisticates shelling out 10 Grand for an Archie install do it for the sound and the attention. They're not true Performance enthusiasts, but revel in the world that to the respectable viewing public that V8 automatically means "FAST".
To me the sound of fast today is a 1800 Lb, 218hp Lotus Exige S Blowing your SBC doors off at 100 MPH... Through a corner.
There's no use arguing about it anymore. They can be wrong and ignorant all they want. True Fiero performance enthusiasts are using better and more efficient engines for this Italian inspired sports car. They are using the replacement for Displacement, Boost. They want the experience of the exotics they grew up idolizing, like The Ferrari F40, Lamborghini Countach or the Lotus Esprit Turbo, instead of grandpa's 57 Chevy. Speed and handling are everything to this type of person, who will go to the easiest route to success in that area. There are some people who see a Mid 13 second SBC as a waste of an awesome platform, and there are some people who are contented with mediocrity.
.... :WTF:....
A: Archie's kits start at $1000, I dont think there is anyway to get to 10k with archie, just doing an engine swap B: Its been said a million plus times, but I guess I have to say it again There is NO replacement for displacement. Boost only supplements displacement. Take a equal 3.8 SC at 7 PSI ( 3.8x 1.5 = 5.7) and a 350 (5.7), and the 350 will win, run it with a turbo'd 2.0L pushing ~20PSI (something like 5.7) and it would get its ass handed to it. There is always going to be loss, lag, heat, etc with a boosted engine. Yes you can build that 3.8SC to be faster than the stock 5.7, but you could do the same with the 5.7
DISCLAIMER: Im not saying a 350 will or wont take a 3.8 SC, its an analogy, IE, assuming both had the same cam profile and intake restrictions etc, only diffrence being the displacement and boost.
I might add this is coming from a guy with a 3.8SC, and a turbo 3.4DOHC. I dont have a V8, though im really thinking about dropping the turbo 3.4DOHC for a 383... There is no magic answer, there is no superior engine, but when you get right down to it, displacement = power, and there is no better engine for aftermarket parts and power than the SBC. Everyone keeps going on how thier modded this and boosted that can take a stock SBC whooptie do.
Mid 13's is mediocraty? Thats no rocket, but what 6 second nitro dragster are you driving?
Im not speaking directly to you now, as I dont even know what you have, but I for one am sick and tired of idiots who drive around in stock honduhs etc and have never set foot in a fast car whining and bit**ing about how a 10 second car isnt fast enough. If those people so much as rode in a Z06 or a real car, they'd crap thier pants, and it'll only run a 12. Christ....
quote
You can't make everyone see your way, so let them build what they want. It's time to leave this argument alone and go our own separate ways on this. The best way to change mindsets is to lead by example. Let see more Technology, and less stone age.
BY ALL MEANS! Please do... someone FINALLY do something... I've been on this board for 4 years, not counting everything outside of here, and thats all I hear "well a yak yak yak could beat this or that" but you never see it, sure its all well and good to say, but someone do it allready. Whats the fastest car on here? Turbo LT1? Maybe Don Kraus's 3.8SC modded to hell? Whos whats his face thats always pushing the top? Show me one person on here running something other than a V8 or a 3.8 SC thats making these amazing numbers I keep hearing they can do with a 1.4 liter or whatever.
If you ask me, if nothing else, the reason the SBC is superior to whatever uber swap you can dream up, its because its doable, it exists, unlike half the "better" swaps everyone talks about, there are hundreds of examples to prove it.
But im not saying V8 or SBC is the ultamate swap, personally I think the 3.8SC has some great points to it, you can get about the same power with much better mileage, and it has almost the same aftermarket support. I know I could take some V8's with my L67, but I would also get my butt handed to me by others. There is no "best engine", but I can certainly say the SBC'ers arent the ones throwing thier money away.
[This message has been edited by 86GT3.4DOHC (edited 03-15-2008).]
Hahahahahaha. You guys are weak. I'm chilling at the Holiday Inn in Key Largo drinking Coronas and my Fiero's back home in Canada under 5 feet of snow. Some people take this game WAAAAAAY too seriously.
Hahahahahaha. You guys are weak. I'm chilling at the Holiday Inn in Key Largo drinking Coronas and my Fiero's back home in Canada under 5 feet of snow. Some people take this game WAAAAAAY too seriously.
Hahahahahaha. You guys are weak. I'm chilling at the Holiday Inn in Key Largo drinking Coronas and my Fiero's back home in Canada under 5 feet of snow. Some people take this game WAAAAAAY too seriously.
Haha, I suppose you're right. Its just aggrivating, this picture comes to mind,
Its like no matter how hard you try to explain, they just keep pushing.
... And yes, those damn movies laid a massive blow to the automotive culture. I actually watched the first one, rolled my eyes quite a few times, but it was watchable, though I still cant figure out how NOS is going to blow the floor pans of your car
It was tolerable, because its actually kind of possible, you can make those kind of cars go fast, granted for every fast one, theres about 2 million POS beaters that people pretend are fast, and 100,000 that think they are fast. But then they just went way overboard with all the crap, I couldnt stomach the first five minutes of the second one,
Hahahahahaha. You guys are weak. I'm chilling at the Holiday Inn in Key Largo drinking Coronas and my Fiero's back home in Canada under 5 feet of snow. Some people take this game WAAAAAAY too seriously.
quote
Haha, I suppose you're right. Its just aggrivating, this picture comes to mind,
agreed on both
another point well taken "There is no replacement for displacement"
How much longer before this makes it to the trash can. The sad part about all of this bafoonery is that it all boils down to owners choice and others not appreciating or respecting the work placed into someone elses car.
I for one am sick of haters ruining every V-8 Fiero video on the net. I was just perusing a few, and the "cletus haters" have hate spewed all over them.
Get over it. jeez
[This message has been edited by topcat (edited 03-15-2008).]
They are, bar none, the cheapest and easiest way to go fast.
$5500 is for the complete car with every part that I have put into it. That being scoops, wheels, motor/trans with MODs, cost of car, ect. I didnt build my car to be a 12 second car but built it to be fun to drive, get good MPG and have plenty of power for anytime I needed it. I have accomplished this and being able to run a 12.0 is just an added plus. If I wanted the car to be faster but not as fun to drive, then I would strip it down to bare nothing and then have to trailer it everywhere.
Well since I'm running 12.3 @ 111 mph I guess GM's advertisement is correct. Thanks for posting the pic.
Which now goes back to Emc209i ~ I installed a normally aspirated engine that advertised 355hp and would make my car a low 12-second car AND IT DOES. If Archie's kit somehow causes a power loss, I'm not seeing it nor are the few others that I know as well with similarly equipped Fiero's with ZZ4's.
V8, V6, 4banger, they all suck!!!! I only have 1HP (hamster Power) and that's at the wheel and I'll take on anyone for pinks.
Edit: I guess this argument will be mute when the best of both worlds comes out next year. A stock GM supercharged V8 with respectable gas mileage at over 600hp.
[This message has been edited by troyboy (edited 03-15-2008).]
Oreif, true, they're not "built" up. A lot of the cars that are posted about frequently are gm "performance" engines which are 'built up' by GM. GM states these engines should get your car into low 12second territory. Its surprising that they lose over 100hp to the wheels from what GM rates them at. That is all I'm saying. That is an issue which I feel should be addressed with his setups.
btw Oreif, I like your car, was nice when it was 3.4 too.
You know, sometimes I think some of you people don't know how to read. Or maybe you want to get in on the bashing so bad but you don't know what to say. But, by God, you gotta be able to come up with something better than this.
The Specs on that crate engine are listed below the engine, the part you didn't include with your post is the description:
quote
An aluminum-headed 350 that makes 355 horses! As far as crate engines go, this one is a winner. The ZZ4 350 Turn-Key crate engine has been one of our most popular high performance crate engines since we started GM Performance Parts. Its legendary status is based on an incredible performance level that is stone cold reliable. We've packed the ZZ4 350 crate engine with a forged steel crankshaft, hypereutectic pistons, hydraulic roller camshaft and lifters, and aluminum cylinder heads. The ZZ4's Corvette-derived high-performance heads feature high velocity intake runners and D-shaped exhaust ports to promote efficient and unobstructed flow through the engine – providing strong power and torque at all RPM levels. The ZZ4 350 is delivered with an aluminum dual-plane intake manifold, HEI distributor, cast iron water pump, damper, and flexplate. Our Turn-Key ZZ4 350 crate engine also ships with all the parts you need to get it running. That includes an accessory drive package, fuel pump, chrome air cleaner kit, Holley 750-cfm carburetor, starter, and spark plug wires. The ZZ4 comes to you with a full 355 horsepower and 405 lb.-ft. of torque. With its high level of performance and durability, it could very well be the perfect crate engine – able to meet the needs of car builders from all phases of the motorsports world. *Applications have not been validated. They are merely suggestions of how you might enjoy your GM Performance Parts crate engine. Some applications may affect engine warranty. Some applications may not be emission legal; check state and local ordinances.
NOW PAY ATTENTION
No place in there does it say that that engine is going to turn your 40 passenger School Bus into a 12 sec. Bracket Car.
Jeeeez..... Some of you guys need to get a life.
Archie
------------------ Sig by Custom2M4
[This message has been edited by Archie (edited 03-15-2008).]
V8, V6, 4banger, they all suck!!!! I only have 1HP (hamster Power) and that's at the wheel and I'll take on anyone for pinks.
Edit: I guess this argument will be mute when the best of both worlds comes out next year. A stock GM supercharged V8 with respectable gas mileage at over 600hp.
Originally posted by Jncomutt: Its surprising that they lose over 100hp to the wheels from what GM rates them at. That is all I'm saying. That is an issue which I feel should be addressed with his setups.
All the swaps that have been documented to have lost 100 hp to the wheels fall into 3 catagories:
300+ hp crate engine with TPI: The TPI was designd for the 305 and designed to enhance torque as a replacement of the 350. Putting it on a 350 will boost torque even higher, but starts to choke off airflow above 4500 (above which most crate engines make their peak HP). So placing a stock TPI on a ZZ4 will cause a significant HP loss... that is just the way is works. Building a high HP TPI takes a very carefull balance of parts and many upgraded TPI parts to remove as much restriction in the TPI unit as possible.
300+ hp crate engines with different carbs and running any manifolds except the Sanderson headers: Most likely their loss was due to a combination of carb tuning and exhaust flow. You can not just slap an out of the box carb on anything and expect it to perform optimally. Exhaust manifolds can also make or break a swap and there is a huge variation in flow between the different available combinations that fit the fiero application.
Other engines of unknown origin, build quality, use of proper parts (heads), etc (expected HP was not right): Since these engines are not a crate motor that GM specificlly developed (or some other crate engine builder), how the combination will perform is pure speculation until it is dynoed. The heads are where it is at. Vortec heads (aluminum or cast iron) or the Aluminum TPI/ZZ4 heads are consistant performers in unported configurations and have been used on 350HP+ crate motors without port work. Any other stock head choice will have a wide variety of success depending on the quality of the work (porting) done to the heads (not all porting work provides the expected results - skill/experience matters).
The SBC engine combos that have had favorable dyno results are: Crate engines with properly tuned carbs and running Sanderson headers - several of these swaps have seen less than 50 hp loss from crank to wheel. There is also at least one TPI (using aftermarket parts and good heads) with Sanderson headers with good results.
I have not come across favorable fiero dyno results with the Rams Horns manifold (not to say there isn't one) and not all Rams Horns are created equally (ported vs. non-ported, 2.5" vs 2", Corvette style vs. non-corvette, aftermarket reproductions vs. stock 60's/70's).
My theory is that there are HUGE variations in exhaust flow potential among the available exhaust manifold/header options. If you look at stock manifold options, the Corvette LT1/LT4 variants went up to 350 hp on factory rated engines, but will not clear the alternator for the Archie alternator placement. The stock 93+ Camaro LT1 manifolds (using two driver sides) are the only manifolds installed on a factory engine rated close to 300 hp that will fit a Fiero SBC, but I have yet to see someone use them or dyno with them. The 2.5 Corvette Rams Horns were on 350 hp engines in the 60's but had a completely different rating system, so it is difficult to determine how much HP they will actually support in todays standards. The Sanderson headers seem to be the best proven combination so far, but have a reputation for cracking (not good for daily driving) and I have not seen any long tube or larger (than 1 5/8) tube headers that have been dyno proven for a Fiero.
I would love to see a dyno comparison (even if it is an engine dyno) between all available exhaust setups (and proper tuning of engine to exhaust) and see how everything falls out. I could loan multiple sets for testing (81 covette tubular headers, 1 5/8" Pacesetter LT1 headers, LT1 Caprice manifolds - 2 driver sides, Speedway motors tru-ram manifolds, and possibly a secret header setup I am working on)
My comments in this thread were directed towards one person ( Emc209i ), about a 12 second daily driver being slow. Then I get jumped on by his buddies who resort to name calling. Everybody is entitled to their own opinion about what is fast and what is slow. I never once stated anything about a sbc is better than the 3800sc or any other engine.
Maybe some of you people should do some research about me before jumping to conclusions. If you don't want to do some research, let me fill you in on several things. I am a well established business owner that builds, installs, and tunes high performance engines. When I say hp engines, I am not just referring to the sbc. I build everything under the sun from SC Ecotecs to 502 big blocks, imports to domestic, you name it, I build it. I have been doing this for 15+ years and my father ("God rest his Soul") has done it for 50+ years before turning the business over to me. So if your looking for an argument about what engine is better, you are barking up the wrong tree.
I am the last person you would want to piss-off, because I would be the first person to give the shirt off my back to help the Fiero community out. That is why I am trying to start a second business dedicated strictly to the Fiero.
Its cool man, it's all in good fun. I know this is teh internets and its serious business and all, but don't let it get ya riled up. I could really care less if the Archie swapped 350s make 200 or 400 hp, but I see these kinda threads all the time and I figured it would be fun to jump in one for once and sling some sh!t around for a bit, and it was.. I wasn't trying to say you're a bad person or that I "e-hate" you or your lack in the e-rep yatta yatta yatta, just kinda getting some laughs at the amount of sincerity being poured into this thread.
To turn things around a bit, good luck with the business. Its nice to see people trying to get more things goin for the Fiero, but as this thread points us, us fiero people are hard to please..
A: Archie's kits start at $1000, I dont think there is anyway to get to 10k with archie, just doing an engine swap B: Its been said a million plus times, but I guess I have to say it again There is NO replacement for displacement. Boost only supplements displacement. Take a equal 3.8 SC at 7 PSI ( 3.8x 1.5 = 5.7) and a 350 (5.7), and the 350 will win, run it with a turbo'd 2.0L pushing ~20PSI (something like 5.7) and it would get its ass handed to it. There is always going to be loss, lag, heat, etc with a boosted engine. Yes you can build that 3.8SC to be faster than the stock 5.7, but you could do the same with the 5.7l
A Stock TPI head will push about 187CFM. A Stock LSJ Head will push 600 CFM. What does that tell me? The boost you push through it will be more efficent because the head flows more.
Lets take the Nissan 3.5L DOHC V6, currently making 300hp in the 350Z. Now take a 3.4 DOHC at 210hp. Add 7 PSI. What car will have more power? Why? They're practically the same displacement.
Oreif, true, they're not "built" up. A lot of the cars that are posted about frequently are gm "performance" engines which are 'built up' by GM. GM states these engines should get your car into low 12second territory. Its surprising that they lose over 100hp to the wheels from what GM rates them at. That is all I'm saying. That is an issue which I feel should be addressed with his setups.
Perhaps I am mis-reading this.... but the loss of power through the driveline... umm.... last I knew archie wasn't making the transmissions, etc, just the adaptor plates and hardware to make the pieces bolt together.... it's still up to the owner to select the components. Nothing to be addressed within the kit about that one....
Besides, I once again refer to old school technology and automotive history.... Think back to the 1970s when the rating proceedure for factory drivetrains was altered by the gov't and they went from crank HP to rear wheel HP.... the same power plants were seeing HUGE drops in rating, alot of 350-4bbl v8s in the chevys fell all the way to 150-175hp rating that first year....
I think I remember hearing that nowadays they allow manufacturers to claim crank HP again, *might* have something to do with it... an engine sold as 355HP is advertising the power of the engine, raw figures, not a projected net which varies form vehicle to vehicle its used in based on a huge number of factors.....
[This message has been edited by KennyC (edited 03-15-2008).]
Being that most of you older folks relate speed to power, and power to rotating pistons... I guess so. But I think 12 seconds is slow for any drag car, regardless of rotating mass. 
I wasn't trying to say you're a bad person or that I "e-hate" you or your lack in the e-rep yatta yatta yatta, just kinda getting some laughs at the amount of sincerity being poured into this thread. 
