quote Originally posted by Oreif: That's fine, But why is it that those of us that HAVE posted dyno's and/or timeslips still get the hate mail? Why do we get grouped in with others that just make claims? So now a dyno and a timeslip aren't valid proof? Now you want video's too? What's next, are you going to want to do a tech inspect of each car? Do you have video of your 12 second run?

I would say because you always get into these Threads and you get your buttons pushed. I am not saying a timeslip/dyno sheet isnt vaild proof for the most part. But when you post a timeslip showing a 11.4 with a 1.5 60' being ran by a SBC attached to a Getrag, a video is going to be needed for proof. I didnt get any video of my 12.0 run I did a few Fridays back but thats okay. Why?-Because I know I ran that time, had a few local club members there, the time is do able with the setup I have and dont care what others think. I will get video next time for you if it will make you happy. Hopefully my next runs will be in the 11s but time will tell.

quote Originally posted by Emc209i: ....

Wow, you sure edited that quickly.

I see you've picked up 9 votes since this time yesterday.

So this thread isn't a total waste.

Archie

[This message has been edited by Archie (edited 03-15-2008).]

quote Originally posted by Archie: We had an expectation of privacy or at least an expectation that we could have a day of fun hanging out with our friends without some fuuking ******* posting mocking videos of it all over the internet for a full year after the event. HOW'S THAT AZZZHOLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You aren't gonna take it to court, I'm not taking it to court. Shounbag is much more likely to get a baseball bat up the side of the head than a summons. NOW, your freeking legal opinion not withstanding. A Fiero owner shouldn't have to go to any Fiero event in the world & have to stalked for the next year by nasty emails & mocking videos of that Fiero owners participation in that event. CAN'T YOU ****ING UNDERSTAND THAT

Can't you have a civilized conversation with someone without resorting to name calling? Are you really that immature?

animal and Tom Corey both feel their privacy was invaded, and I feel that he/they are dramatically overreacting. I never claimed you or I were going to take it to court. I've certainly never suggested hitting someone with a baseball bat, nor have I implied that I would.

I am NOT defending the content of the videos that he posted, or the method by which he got the footage. I'm NOT defending harassing e-mails/comments. Harassment is illegal, and if you really felt like ending this you would pursue the legal options available to you. I will, however, defend the right (yes, the right, as in 1st Amendment right) of a person to publish anything that is factual, and does not call for violence. You may not like the videos, I may not like the videos, Tom Corey and animal BOTH may not like the videos, but if the information contained therein is not fabricated, I will defend the right of an individual to post it. Kinda like the 2g1c video. (<--That's not a family/work friendly video, for anyone who doesn't know what it is and wants to look it up. It's disgusting, and you don't actually want to see it.)

Stalking is wrong, harassment is wrong, posting unflattering videos is not.

You have been described by some as a cornerstone and a leader of the Fiero community. Whether or not you want that kind of recognition or fame is irrelevent, but being involved for so long and being as involved as you are, you have been dubbed a leader. Leaders of anything are mocked by those who don't like them (or are jealous, or whatever) as someone in the spotlight, you need to develop the ability to shrug it off. Do you think George W. Bush goes off on people on internet forums? If you think there are mocking videos of you, you should see the number he has. How about Al Gore? Or Lindsey Lohan? How about Shirley Phelps? Well, maybe she's not the best example, but the theory holds true, those in the spotlight get mocked. If you can't handle it (or won't, for whatever reason) the only solution is to remove yourself from the spotlight. The only people who don't get mocked by someone are those who aren't known.

I've been nothing but civil in this thread, and I certainly don't appreciate being insulted for having an opinion that you don't like.

[This message has been edited by FieroJimmy (edited 03-15-2008).]

quote Originally posted by Archie: You & your RFT buddys are the forum police. You find the 6 banger claims & you call them out on them. I'm willing to live & let live, you're the one who wants the internet policed. Archie

I post on RFT, does that make me a bad person Archie? Why don't you go into the Board and see how many times I have posted in the RFT Vs. Teh World Subforum. Go on, take a look. I have Friends on that forum that share my same belief in SBC's, but that may only be coincidence because a few of the friends I have on there live close by me. Let me Iterate what you already know. The SBC is an old stone age engine. These days you can see 300hp out of a Nissan 3.5L DOHC V6 because of technology. There are lots of people who feel that's where technology has brought us to.

With the onset of Computer Technology we see Dynometers and people using them more and more frequently. Not sure if you surf any other forums, but it's almost expected that if you claim X amount of horsepower that You should post a dyno slip to back it up. It's called the information age.

What I would like to see is an Internet where people would be honest with each other. Honesty is all we're asking for here on this forum, and others. Is it too much to ask from people that they should show proof of their Horsepower claims?

quote Originally posted by Archie: Wow, you sure edited that quickly. I see you've picked up 9 votes since this time yesterday. So this thread isn't a total waste. Archie

And I'm sure you've lost 9 customers since the beginning of this thread.... Its your money not mine. Ratings here mean nothing to me and have no negative consequence on my life in any regard. I edited it because I'm not going to bash you personally- that's a low blow. I'll leave that for you to do.

quote Originally posted by Emc209i: I edited it because I'm not going to bash you personally- that's a low blow.

Kudos to you for displaying that level of maturity. I didn't even know what it was about, since I was busy typing my reply to being insulted myself. Maybe others should learn from what you've just done.

quote Originally posted by FieroJimmy: Kudos to you for displaying that level of maturity. I didn't even know what it was about, since I was busy typing my reply to being insulted myself. Maybe others should learn from what you've just done.

I'm sorry you felt insulted, but at the time I felt that you weren't getting the thrust of my opinion.

Your legal opinion not withstanding.

A Fiero owner shouldn't have to go to any Fiero event in the world & have to be stalked for the next year by nasty emails & mocking videos of that Fiero owners participation in that event.

THAT's what this whole thread is all about.

No Fiero owner has the right to do to another Fiero owner what Shaunbag did to & continues to do to Tom Corey & others.

Last year before the Daytona show I told the FL show organizers that if Shaunbag was allowed to video the Dyno runs, no matter how good or bad the cars performed, Shaunbag would turn it into a year of hate. He has done exactly as I predicted, yet those RFT guys keep supporting him instead of trying to straighten him out.

Shaunbag is more than a pathetic attention whore. He has an obsession that dominates his life. He's the kind of individual that goes onto a college campus & starts shooting the place up.

Someone has to get him under control before something bad happens.

I'm done with this now

Archie

[This message has been edited by Archie (edited 03-15-2008).]

Another V8 just sitting idling. Oh the humanity.

quote Originally posted by Archie:

No answers to my Questions? All I want are my questions answered, Archie.

[This message has been edited by Leafy (edited 03-15-2008).]

quote Originally posted by Leafy: Yeah X, we're calling you out. Let's see some proof.

You planning on the hate mail, harassment and trolling to go with that?

I must admit I have been avoiding this thread for awhile. Chalk it up to boredom, but I finally read it. It cracks me up to see my name being used to defend the V6 vs V8 argument.

I could really care less what is powering your car. If it runs 10s, 11s, 12s. It is fast. Sure more displacement means more potential, but who really cares. When I go to the track and record 11s runs, people are impressed. Very few even know what engine is in the car. I personally find it more impressive when fast times are achieved with smaller displacement, but I still respect the V8 guys.

None of this really matters to 99.9% of the car world though. My $0.02 is everyone should try to show up at Milan Dragway on Wed. before the show and respresent the Fiero community. There will be all walks of car life there, not just Fiero guys. Run what you brung and no BS.

------------------
62 Buick Special
86 GT, 5-Speed
87 GT, 3.4l DOHC Turbo 415 WHP, 11.9 @ 118
88 Toyota Supra Turbo

quote Originally posted by Formula88: You planning on the hate mail, harassment and trolling to go with that?

Do you actually believe I had anything to do with that stuff?

quote Originally posted by Leafy: No answers to my Questions? All I want are my questions answered, Archie.

Well, you're gonna get answers, then my work is done here.

I expect you to read it.

quote Originally posted by Leafy: I post on RFT, does that make me a bad person Archie? Why don't you go into the Board and see how many times I have posted in the RFT Vs. Teh World Subforum. Go on, take a look. I have Friends on that forum that share my same belief in SBC's, but that may only be coincidence because a few of the friends I have on there live close by me. Let me Iterate what you already know. The SBC is an old stone age engine. These days you can see 300hp out of a Nissan 3.5L DOHC V6 because of technology. There are lots of people who feel that's where technology has brought us to. With the onset of Computer Technology we see Dynometers and people using them more and more frequently. Not sure if you surf any other forums, but it's almost expected that if you claim X amount of horsepower that You should post a dyno slip to back it up. It's called the information age. What I would like to see is an Internet where people would be honest with each other. Honesty is all we're asking for here on this forum, and others. Is it too much to ask from people that they should show proof of their Horsepower claims?

I don't know what you're screen name is on RFT but if you say your a good then that's fine by me.

However based on your comment about the SBC being stone age, it appears that you've already decided that we're not going to find any common ground. But let's try......

I don't know if a 3.5 Datsun engine makes 300 hp stock but if it does I'd still rather have a SBC that makes 300hp. Typically the SBC would make maximum HP at a much lower RPM & the SBC would make more torque & be making it at a lower RPM. You see I like to take off quickly for traffic lights & most of my driving is in the city. Around here with a SBC I can take off from a trarffic light at 2000 to 2500 RPM & get a good launch without attracting too much attention from the cops. Typically with a smaller displacement engine a person would have to take off at 3500 or more RPM to get the same result. If you're saying that the Datsun engine has to be built up to make the 300 HP then it's a shoe in that a SBC is gonna make that 300hp a lot cheaper than the 3.5 plus it's gonna make that power range I want my car to make it in.

Now, I'm into Fieros because I love the little things. I've always wanted Muscle Car power & torque in a Sports Car package. While the Fiero may not be the best Sports Car available, it gets the nod from me because of the midengine configuration that has weight as close to 50-50 as you can get & still have Muscle Car power & torque in a Sports Car package. Before I put a SBC in a Fiero I had put SBC's into a Datsun 240Z, an XKE, an Opel GT a Bug-eyed Sprite & a few others. While they had plenty of power in a straight line, the Sports Car handling was gone. The Fiero fit the bill.

If I wasn't into the Fieros, I'd be putting LSx engines into older Muscle Cars.

You didn't say if you had put that Datsun engine into a Fiero, but if you're talking about that engine in that car, I just couldn't care how fast it is.

If it's a Muscle Car or a Fiero then I like it. If it's any other type of car, then it's a rental car.

You asked if you should be demanding proof in HP claims. This is really a 2 part answer.

This is going to take a few minutes to read but I know you'll understand the older generation a lot better if you read it.

part 1....I grew up in the '60's, everybody I knew had a hot car then. There wasn't as much variety as there is now. A BMW had a 2 cylinder engine, anything British had Lucus electronics. (You know why Britians drink warm beer don't you? They have Lucas refrigerators. <~~~~ that's a joke for the old times) Most everybody I knew had a Muscle car from the big 3. There weren't chassis dynos around & very few engine dynos. If you wanted an engine in your car that wasn't stock you had to build it or have a local rebuilder build it for you. If you had a 396/375 Chevelle (396ci/375hp for you youngsters) & you put such & such cam in it then it would make 400 horse or whatever. Everybody knew that because local engine shops didn't have dynos but they bought their parts all from the same major suppliers. Because engine Dynos were way too expensive for the local rebuilders to have, the manufacturers would test every performance part they made in every engine that part was made to fit. These manufacturers made charts up so local engine builders knew how much HP each part would make in each engine it was made to fit. Let's say you were wanting your engine builder to build a 400hp 327ci SBC. He'd pull out a chart that would tell him exactly what cam, pistons, rods, heads & everything else it would take to build that engine. Then they'd build it.

part 2.... In my day, you took a man at his word. You wouldn't call him a liar unless you could prove it & you had to look him in the eye when you told him he was a liar. He didn't have to prove to you that he wasn't lying, you had to provide the proof. Now days people lie all the time, young people are raised to understand that they have to lie to survive & that everybody does it. When I was young, it was a major insult to be called a liar. If you heard someone call call someone a liar, you were about to witness a fight. If you didn't believe someone's HP claims, you either smiled & nodded & walked away or you challenged him to a race. The races were always for money & sometimes for Titles (or Pinks) If you didn't want the car he was driving, you always made sure it was for money. If he accepted your challenge & then you backed out, you'd get laughed right out of school or off the street.

So, to answer your question should you be demanding proof in HP claims. I don't think you should be demanding. You can't demand things from people you don't know, in my day that would be the best way to get your butt kicked. Now days you think it's ok because you don't have to do it face to face. I think it would be fine to ask in a respectful way. No need to be blasting away at them right away, you could give him the benifit of the doubt until he's had a chance to give enough details that you can prove he's lying.

The burden of proof is on the accuser not the accused.

Archie

quote Originally posted by Archie: anything British had Lucus electronics. (You know why Britians drink warm beer don't you? They have Lucas refrigerators. <~~~~ that's a joke for the old times) Archie

ahhh good ole Lucas "The Prince of darkness"

OMG! Nobody's posted to this thread in like an hour!!! But, this useless BS is like the hottest thing on the PFF right now!!!! Does that make this a bump then?!?!?!

*rolls eyes*

[This message has been edited by bornobsessed (edited 03-16-2008).]

He didn't even build that engine...so why is this thread still going? No one gives a **** if you can do more with less, I'll just keep building my Chev 302 with every intention of ordering a kit from Archie, and we'll see who gets the last laugh.
Top of the Muffin to you,
-Dave

------------------
---85 GT Notchback---
--1994 Toyota Tacoma, Lifted, 35 MT's, Locked, Exo'd, Complete Off-Roader---
---1974 Hyundai Pony, Worst daily driver, ever---

quote Originally posted by Archie: I don't know what you're screen name is on RFT but if you say your a good then that's fine by me. However based on your comment about the SBC being stone age, it appears that you've already decided that we're not going to find any common ground. But let's try...... I don't know if a 3.5 Datsun engine makes 300 hp stock but if it does I'd still rather have a SBC that makes 300hp. Typically the SBC would make maximum HP at a much lower RPM & the SBC would make more torque & be making it at a lower RPM. You see I like to take off quickly for traffic lights & most of my driving is in the city. Around here with a SBC I can take off from a trarffic light at 2000 to 2500 RPM & get a good launch without attracting too much attention from the cops. Typically with a smaller displacement engine a person would have to take off at 3500 or more RPM to get the same result. If you're saying that the Datsun engine has to be built up to make the 300 HP then it's a shoe in that a SBC is gonna make that 300hp a lot cheaper than the 3.5 plus it's gonna make that power range I want my car to make it in. Now, I'm into Fieros because I love the little things. I've always wanted Muscle Car power & torque in a Sports Car package. While the Fiero may not be the best Sports Car available, it gets the nod from me because of the midengine configuration that has weight as close to 50-50 as you can get & still have Muscle Car power & torque in a Sports Car package. Before I put a SBC in a Fiero I had put SBC's into a Datsun 240Z, an XKE, an Opel GT a Bug-eyed Sprite & a few others. While they had plenty of power in a straight line, the Sports Car handling was gone. The Fiero fit the bill. If I wasn't into the Fieros, I'd be putting LSx engines into older Muscle Cars. You didn't say if you had put that Datsun engine into a Fiero, but if you're talking about that engine in that car, I just couldn't care how fast it is. If it's a Muscle Car or a Fiero then I like it. If it's any other type of car, then it's a rental car. You asked if you should be demanding proof in HP claims. This is really a 2 part answer. This is going to take a few minutes to read but I know you'll understand the older generation a lot better if you read it. part 1....I grew up in the '60's, everybody I knew had a hot car then. There wasn't as much variety as there is now. A BMW had a 2 cylinder engine, anything British had Lucus electronics. (You know why Britians drink warm beer don't you? They have Lucas refrigerators. <~~~~ that's a joke for the old times) Most everybody I knew had a Muscle car from the big 3. There weren't chassis dynos around & very few engine dynos. If you wanted an engine in your car that wasn't stock you had to build it or have a local rebuilder build it for you. If you had a 396/375 Chevelle (396ci/375hp for you youngsters) & you put such & such cam in it then it would make 400 horse or whatever. Everybody knew that because local engine shops didn't have dynos but they bought their parts all from the same major suppliers. Because engine Dynos were way too expensive for the local rebuilders to have, the manufacturers would test every performance part they made in every engine that part was made to fit. These manufacturers made charts up so local engine builders knew how much HP each part would make in each engine it was made to fit. Let's say you were wanting your engine builder to build a 400hp 327ci SBC. He'd pull out a chart that would tell him exactly what cam, pistons, rods, heads & everything else it would take to build that engine. Then they'd build it. part 2.... In my day, you took a man at his word. You wouldn't call him a liar unless you could prove it & you had to look him in the eye when you told him he was a liar. He didn't have to prove to you that he wasn't lying, you had to provide the proof. Now days people lie all the time, young people are raised to understand that they have to lie to survive & that everybody does it. When I was young, it was a major insult to be called a liar. If you heard someone call call someone a liar, you were about to witness a fight. If you didn't believe someone's HP claims, you either smiled & nodded & walked away or you challenged him to a race. The races were always for money & sometimes for Titles (or Pinks) If you didn't want the car he was driving, you always made sure it was for money. If he accepted your challenge & then you backed out, you'd get laughed right out of school or off the street. So, to answer your question should you be demanding proof in HP claims. I don't think you should be demanding. You can't demand things from people you don't know, in my day that would be the best way to get your butt kicked. Now days you think it's ok because you don't have to do it face to face. I think it would be fine to ask in a respectful way. No need to be blasting away at them right away, you could give him the benifit of the doubt until he's had a chance to give enough details that you can prove he's lying. The burden of proof is on the accuser not the accused. Archie

Very nicely put. I was raised around the "old" style hotrodding, like Archie explains. I have kids (I call them kids because they own Hondas or someother foriegn make and think they can beat everyone in town because they put a Cold Air Intake and Cat-Back Exhaust on their car) ask me for dyno sheets to my Fieros all the time, I don't have any, nor do I plan to get any. I have raced some of these kids before, sometimes I was unpowered, but I still won. How may you ask, well its simple, they didn't know how to drive their car like, missing shifts, over revving, or stalling. I am not saying I am the best driver, because I am not. I have lost lots of races, that I have lost proudly because I got beat fair and square. I think now and most of the people I have raced that I have respect for are older gentlemen and a few women (and yes I will admit I have lost to a lady, she had a far better car than me and I messed up) because they know what they are talking about and they know how to build real fast cars. I just hate when I get those arrogant kids in their ricer thingys that think they can beat even the best cars from the past, I had a classmate that had a 1999 Honda Civic with a Four banger and a five speed, after he put a K&N Cold Air Intake and a Injen Cat-Back exhaust on his car with a short shifter he thought he could beat my uncles stock 1970 Chevy Chevelle SS with a 396 and a four speed muncie with 3.73 posi gears, so I took him to the track and showed him, my uncle dogged him twice. The next day he told all his little friends that he beat my uncle in his Chevelle. I just hate that most of them think they can put on some bolt on parts and go out and beat everyone and set the world on fire, not going to happen. Like my great-grandfather always said, "If you want real power out of that engine, take it out of the car and build it up. The more money you put in it the faster you go, if you do it right."

The best thing about a Chevy 350 is that you can get parts anywhere for them. There are so many possibilties to the Chevy 350, its insane. The more money you put into the Chevy 350, the faster that Chevy 350 with be. But with a well built Chevy 350 it doesn't take much to get 400HP out of it. I like the 350's in Fieros, but I prefer the 3800SC, just because its Supercharged and its a V6 so not alot of people expect it to be fast and it just a another cool engine made by GM. I wouldn't mind having a Chevy 350 or a Chevy 427 small block in a Fiero, I think it would be cool and lots of fun. I not only have love for the Fiero but for many other GM cars and lots of GM Classics and some other makes. I can type up a list of my favorite cars, if you would like to know, but its going to be a couple of pages

This is just my little rant. Not lighting any fires.

o jesus f-ing christ.. this is so freaking pathetic it isn't even funny, i look @ this thread and all i see are kids fighting over who's dad will beat up who and who has the better power ranger action figure. fighting over who puts what motor into a car is just retarded and the fact some people get there panties in a wad so much that they have to devote there time and there life over it is even more pathetic. i'm sorry but some people just need to FU*KING GROW UP. ITS A FU*KING CAR GET OVER IT if you cant, then you really need to AN HERO yourself like now.


p.s. in b4 trashcan....

quote Originally posted by HI-TECH: o jesus f-ing christ.. this is so freaking pathetic it isn't even funny, i look @ this thread and all i see are kids fighting over who's dad will beat up who and who has the better power ranger action figure. fighting over who puts what motor into a car is just retarded and the fact some people get there panties in a wad so much that they have to devote there time and there life over it is even more pathetic. i'm sorry but some people just need to FU*KING GROW UP. ITS A FU*KING CAR GET OVER IT if you cant, then you really need to AN HERO yourself like now. p.s. in b4 trashcan....

You might want to re-read the thread. That's not what it is about at all.


Nice post Archie. I agree, back in the 60s most car guys knew the power of eachother's car. Unfortunatly this is the post 70s 80s and 90s. There were a lot of junk emisson sbc's made in those 3 decades. The TPI and crossfire injection engines are perfect examples. Both are dogs in stock form. When someone claims more than double a stock TPI's power output and then goes to a dyno, you better be able to back your claim up. These are not engines that build power easily. They have a lot of restrictive parts from factory.

This is the internet age. Its just as easy to make up a fake HP number as it is to call someone out on it. If you can't back up a power figure, then don't guess.

[This message has been edited by crzyone (edited 03-16-2008).]

Archie, my first stop light drag race was against a Red Sunbeam Tiger. About 1966 or so. It was also my last stoplight drag, I got a ticket from the Dallas Police. They couldnt catch him.
Joe

quote Originally posted by Archie: I'm sorry you felt insulted, but at the time I felt that you weren't getting the thrust of my opinion.

That truly is a classy move, on your part, very classy indeed.

You feel that I wasn't understanding your opinion. So, rather than spell it out, you decide to insult me. Then, when I feel insulted, you apologize for my feelings, not your insult (which you instead justify).

Classy, sir.

You've definitely lost me as a potential customer, and I will seek no further interaction with you, until such time as you grow up.

quote Originally posted by FieroJimmy: You've definitely lost me as a potential customer, and I will seek no further interaction with you, until such time as you grow up.

In order for him to lose you as a customer, you would have to be a potential customer to begin with. I think it's safe to say that's not the case. So your point is moot.

Actually, about 85% of this thread is moot. And all this divisiveness disgusts me. When people look at the Fiero community and see us flinging poop at each other like a bunch of monkeys, it does nothing to help our public image, nor that of our cars.

I think some of you have lost sight of the fact that we're all fellow Fiero owners. Maybe you should go buy a Honda and be happy.

quote Originally posted by Leafy: Let me Iterate what you already know. The SBC is an old stone age engine. These days you can see 300hp out of a Nissan 3.5L DOHC V6 because of technology. There are lots of people who feel that's where technology has brought us to.

Leafy,

I need to add this observation. Your quote indicates to me you are younger and don't understand the mentality of the older crowd who don't care so much about technology. My harley was a pushrod with carb. It was big, underpowered, but could be built up to insane levels of power. I could do all my own wrenchin. I grew up in the days when a Nova or Vega had a SBC or LBC installed with a six pack carb setup. My buddies had the Barracudas with the 318's - three speeds. My Dad had a 63 Vette (convertible) with the base 300hp turbojet. When you started any of the engines above it is was "blub-blub, gurgle, blug blub, wraaaaaaaaaaaa" when you hit the gas. It shook at idle and the entire body would move with the pulse of the engine. When I was at a stop light with the Harley - everyone and I mean everyone would be transfixed by the engine bouncing around in the frame - I had a Dyna rubber mount.

I can't speak for other SBCers, but I want the flip flop bouncy bounce and raw low RPM torque and HP that a crate SBC gives me. They are cheap and relatively easy to have maintained compared to overhead cam engines. I know I'll get flammed for that comment. I grew up with pushrods - and even though I've got access to newer technology don't want to give up on the other niceties the older technology gives me. Kinda like keeping a good less attractive girlfriend and not booting her because a new beauty (most likely lots of silicone or salene) walks down the street.

Your comment that SBC are stone age is a clear indication to me that you've predetermined for the most part that an SBCer is somehow a looser or worse. I know that comment is stretching a little - but this is text and I only have so much time. Sorry.

I know you're asking for proof of numbers. Hey I posted mine - but remember that my setup has not been tuned. It was running hugely rich. Yeah the TPI isn't the best way to feed an SBC - but if you look at my build thread pics you can't deny one thing. It's not just an engine - it's art.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder - but the chrome TPI with the Siamesed runners is way cool to me - and to almost anyone who sees it in person. I placed in the V8 class at Fierorama last September - runner up to that kick ahahaa 750 HP runner I mentioned earlier.

Having said all of the above - I'm easilly awed by anyone who does a great job - regardless of engine type. I'll always pick the pushrod over the OHC - or DOHC just because I can smile at the memories of cars than can be compared to "jiggling jello" at idle...... It may not seem rational to you, but you had to have lived it to really appreciate it - or at least be open to the idea that others find it "cool" or "phat" or whatever.

Archie's post that details some of the above is a very fond memory of what life used to be like for me. He's right on the button.

As a final comment I "dig" all engines and would like to see someone put a "new" Supra twin turbo in a Fiero. Would be cool - but it's gonna cost them a ton of cash - at least as much as 5 big decked out SBCs.

Dave

quote Originally posted by Blacktree: In order for him to lose you as a customer, you would have to be a potential customer to begin with. I think it's safe to say that's not the case. So your point is moot. Maybe you should go buy a Honda and be happy.

Dude, you don't know me at all. You can't say what I would or would not do. This is between me and the guy who insulted me for disagreeing with him. I have a 383 hanging on the stand in the garage, and I've been looking at getting integrated rockers, now that it's warming up enough I can comfortably work on my car again. I have cash in hand, for your information.

Go buy a Honda? What is your problem, dude? A business owner insulted me, and I took exception to it, that doesn't mean I'm not happy with my car, that doesn't mean I think the whole Fiero community sucks. Would you tell me to go buy a Honda if I thought Darth was being childish? How about Chris West? Am I allowed to disagree with any vendors and still be a part of the Fiero community, or do I have to think every one of them is a god? They are all perfect and the rest of us mere mortals can't disagree with them.

Consistently, the same few people start the name calling with one another, and when I say it's childish, now I'm the bad guy.

For the record, I think some of the cars that come from Archie's shop are very nice cars, I may not care for all of the styling cues, but they aren't my cars. I have never bashed someone based on their choice of engines, colors, or spoilers. I rarely, if ever, get involved in threads like these, but it's getting real annoying seeing the same threads over and over.

I am now aware that I'm not allowed to have an opinion that is different from the majority here, so consider me chastised. I'll keep my thoughts to myself from now on.

I'm just tired of the Archie vs Shaun nonsense. Call me jaded, if you will. But the next time one of these Archie vs Shaun & Co arguments comes up, I'm going to hand out negative ratings like candy at Halloween. Because I'm sick of it.

quote Originally posted by DrCPU: Kinda like keeping a good less attractive girlfriend and not booting her because a new beauty (most likely lots of silicone or salene) walks down the street.

That's respectable, none of us have a problem with that! You drive what you love- and that's all that matters. But like everything, you can install a sbc wrong. That's what many of the people here are saying. And as for Leafy, all he's saying that a SBC is dated... which is the truth that you just concreted. You like it because that's what you grew up with. I'd probably be the same way.

The problem being, many of us in the Fiero community don't like outcome of SBC's being installed with crush bent exhaust, hot air intakes, heavy adapter plates etc. The car sounds amazing, but then falls on its face at dyno events, drag races, whatever you enter it in. This creates bad rep for the community as a whole. This is the issue we'd like to see addressed.

I personally don't want to see Archie fall on his face- I want him to do it right so I can recommend his swaps. But he seems convinced that everyone is like Shaun, out to get him, and navigates away from the problem into name calling.

Saying that people can't afford Mandrel bends isn't selling me. That should be part of the install. I'm talking about people that install a V8 with your mail order kit, I'm talking about cars that come out of your shop that you built. Also how hard would it be to install a fender intake?

[This message has been edited by Emc209i (edited 03-16-2008).]

One last post from me in this thread.

I think it's important to go back to the first post and the title of the thread. It all boils down to one angry unbalance individual who spends an inordinate amount of time devoted to undermining anything coming from PFF and most specifically at the SBC crowd. I was in Daytona and I was at the Dyno event. He wears his "banned" PFF shirt and taunts Fiero loving individuals - for no good reason I might add.

He did not run his car at the Dyno. He could barely even get it into gear. His sole intent was to derive some kind of unbalanced perverted delight in ruining this fun event for us. This poor fellow is driven by an urge that can only be classed as being "possessed" to destroy fun. I pray for him - he needs help - he really does.

He was banned from PFF. He was banned for a reason - not by one individual - but by the collective of PFF. He was banned for valid reasons, yet he spends an inordinate amount of time trying to bring down the group as he thinks he's been wronged.

Live by the sword - die by the sword - or in this case then pen or written word.

We all have the right to free expression, but when someone takes this right to an extreme there are outcomes. Shawn has maligned me in RTF. He did so long before we ever met. He did so from the dark recesses of another forum. For some reason he has an audience and I can only guess what those reasons might be. It's really a shame. Life is way to short to spend it in the pursuit of negative energy.

Leafy (and your not the only one), may have fallen into the Shawn trap. You're now embroilled in defending your principle when the thread was about someone willfully trying to destroy something that was good and was fun. I know it wasn't your intent - but it's all there for the world to read in the posts. You seem like a nice enough fellow and I don't make calls on anyone until I've met them face to face. Shauwn's intent to damage PFF is working - to a minor degree - now that some PFF members feelings on their right to free speech has taken root.

Someone mentioned earlier in this thread that you only need to ignore those like Shawn. He'll eventually get tired and go away. We should however expect him to continue his perverted errant ways until he matures. Maybe some day he'll get it - maybe not. I won't loose any sleep over it.

He has attempted to damage many PFF reputations and for some reason has a fixation on Archie. He'll defend himself to the death saying we are lying about numbers. We all know that's not the real reason. In my personal opinion he is mentally unstable and could easilly redirect his focus to something new in time.

Dave

Anybody here like Fieros?

quote Originally posted by DrCPU: Your quote indicates to me you are younger and don't understand the mentality of the older crowd who don't care so much about technology. My harley was a pushrod with carb. It was big, underpowered, but could be built up to insane levels of power. I could do all my own wrenchin. I grew up in the days when a Nova or Vega had a SBC or LBC installed with a six pack carb setup. My buddies had the Barracudas with the 318's - three speeds. My Dad had a 63 Vette (convertible) with the base 300hp turbojet. When you started any of the engines above it is was "blub-blub, gurgle, blug blub, wraaaaaaaaaaaa" when you hit the gas. It shook at idle and the entire body would move with the pulse of the engine. When I was at a stop light with the Harley - everyone and I mean everyone would be transfixed by the engine bouncing around in the frame - I had a Dyna rubber mount. I can't speak for other SBCers, but I want the flip flop bouncy bounce and raw low RPM torque and HP that a crate SBC gives me. They are cheap and relatively easy to have maintained compared to overhead cam engines. I know I'll get flammed for that comment. I grew up with pushrods - and even though I've got access to newer technology don't want to give up on the other niceties the older technology gives me. Dave

Older crowd - Nostalgia - Attention - Old Technology geared towards you (the older crowd) rather than newer higher RPM technology - Ending statement (you like all of the above.) Like I said before- Good for you. If that's not the interpretation you were intending, then you need to reword it so that us younger guys get the gist.

Knowing Leafy (Sean) before the pretexts of this thread, allows me to see a more funneled view of what he's saying compared to what you read. The sbc was "dated" the year it came out in 1954 compared to its high tech foreign competitors. A double overhead cam motor was being built in production motors since 1912... Pushrod technology is beyond stone age to me, I thought he put it modestly at best. All he's doing is stating fact for how it is, not attacking you. If you're going to defend the OHV motor though, you're going to have to look at it subjectively to get anywhere.

Once again, you grew up with it and appreciate it and seeing potential- so good for you. Don't think I'm trying to put something your face - I respect your opinion. I'm not trying to defend Leafy against you either.

Back to Archie.

[This message has been edited by Emc209i (edited 03-16-2008).]

quote Originally posted by Doc John: Anybody here like Fieros?

I like all Fieros.

I just think some people's taste (in terms of colors/body work) is questionable. But then again, they aren't MY cars, so they're free to do as they see fit.

I just read something interesting - Crayola now makes crayons in a whole bunch of different colors!!!!!!!!!!

Imagine that - having choices, being able to pick the one you want. It might not be the same color the guy down the street likes, but that's o.k. Kind of neat being able to pick out the color you like - the one that's right for you. Hey, if you've saved your allowance, you can buy a pack that has eight different colors!!!

Ok, now back to the ranting. Make sure you get the last word in!

quote Originally posted by Archie: I don't know what you're screen name is on RFT but if you say your a good then that's fine by me. However based on your comment about the SBC being stone age, it appears that you've already decided that we're not going to find any common ground. But let's try...... I don't know if a 3.5 Datsun engine makes 300 hp stock but if it does I'd still rather have a SBC that makes 300hp. Typically the SBC would make maximum HP at a much lower RPM & the SBC would make more torque & be making it at a lower RPM. You see I like to take off quickly for traffic lights & most of my driving is in the city. Around here with a SBC I can take off from a trarffic light at 2000 to 2500 RPM & get a good launch without attracting too much attention from the cops. Typically with a smaller displacement engine a person would have to take off at 3500 or more RPM to get the same result. If you're saying that the Datsun engine has to be built up to make the 300 HP then it's a shoe in that a SBC is gonna make that 300hp a lot cheaper than the 3.5 plus it's gonna make that power range I want my car to make it in. Now, I'm into Fieros because I love the little things. I've always wanted Muscle Car power & torque in a Sports Car package. While the Fiero may not be the best Sports Car available, it gets the nod from me because of the midengine configuration that has weight as close to 50-50 as you can get & still have Muscle Car power & torque in a Sports Car package. Before I put a SBC in a Fiero I had put SBC's into a Datsun 240Z, an XKE, an Opel GT a Bug-eyed Sprite & a few others. While they had plenty of power in a straight line, the Sports Car handling was gone. The Fiero fit the bill. If I wasn't into the Fieros, I'd be putting LSx engines into older Muscle Cars. You didn't say if you had put that Datsun engine into a Fiero, but if you're talking about that engine in that car, I just couldn't care how fast it is. If it's a Muscle Car or a Fiero then I like it. If it's any other type of car, then it's a rental car. You asked if you should be demanding proof in HP claims. This is really a 2 part answer. This is going to take a few minutes to read but I know you'll understand the older generation a lot better if you read it. part 1....I grew up in the '60's, everybody I knew had a hot car then. There wasn't as much variety as there is now. A BMW had a 2 cylinder engine, anything British had Lucus electronics. (You know why Britians drink warm beer don't you? They have Lucas refrigerators. <~~~~ that's a joke for the old times) Most everybody I knew had a Muscle car from the big 3. There weren't chassis dynos around & very few engine dynos. If you wanted an engine in your car that wasn't stock you had to build it or have a local rebuilder build it for you. If you had a 396/375 Chevelle (396ci/375hp for you youngsters) & you put such & such cam in it then it would make 400 horse or whatever. Everybody knew that because local engine shops didn't have dynos but they bought their parts all from the same major suppliers. Because engine Dynos were way too expensive for the local rebuilders to have, the manufacturers would test every performance part they made in every engine that part was made to fit. These manufacturers made charts up so local engine builders knew how much HP each part would make in each engine it was made to fit. Let's say you were wanting your engine builder to build a 400hp 327ci SBC. He'd pull out a chart that would tell him exactly what cam, pistons, rods, heads & everything else it would take to build that engine. Then they'd build it. part 2.... In my day, you took a man at his word. You wouldn't call him a liar unless you could prove it & you had to look him in the eye when you told him he was a liar. He didn't have to prove to you that he wasn't lying, you had to provide the proof. Now days people lie all the time, young people are raised to understand that they have to lie to survive & that everybody does it. When I was young, it was a major insult to be called a liar. If you heard someone call call someone a liar, you were about to witness a fight. If you didn't believe someone's HP claims, you either smiled & nodded & walked away or you challenged him to a race. The races were always for money & sometimes for Titles (or Pinks) If you didn't want the car he was driving, you always made sure it was for money. If he accepted your challenge & then you backed out, you'd get laughed right out of school or off the street. So, to answer your question should you be demanding proof in HP claims. I don't think you should be demanding. You can't demand things from people you don't know, in my day that would be the best way to get your butt kicked. Now days you think it's ok because you don't have to do it face to face. I think it would be fine to ask in a respectful way. No need to be blasting away at them right away, you could give him the benifit of the doubt until he's had a chance to give enough details that you can prove he's lying. The burden of proof is on the accuser not the accused. Archie

Aright, and that's fine. I can see where you're coming from, I respect your view and decisions that you make based on that view. Although I would have to still maintain that some sort of proof is a nice way to avoid discrepancies between claimed Horsepower numbers a person post on the internet and the actual numbers the car runs.

This day and age I had my Co-Worker's Friend tell me that his Bone stock, 200hp, 3400lb Nissan Skyline GTS-T runs 12's in the 1/4 mile and will destroy my Cobalt SS Supercharged. The first question I asked myself is if my Cobalt has less weight, and has more power, and I know it's only good for High 13's to mid 14's (haha I can't drive) wouldn't he be slower than my car?

I say that the burden of proof is in the Numbers. If I can't find "C" by A over B, then some thing's not right. Maybe though like you said, to keep things calm around here give someone the benefit of the doubt. I'm sure most can handle that.

I don't get the "old tech" vs "new tech" argument against SBC swaps. If you're so hyped on new tech you think a V8 is absurd, why are you modding a 20+ year old car?
Go buy a late model Honda, Nissan, or Mitsubishi. Or go buy a Cobalt or Ion and go all out with your high tech buildups.

This thread has gone the way of every V8 bashing thread. It's just about finding ways to insult people who disagree with you.
The post was originally about haters following Archie and other V8 owners around bashing them at every opportunity. I don't care what type of engine you prefer, that's just wrong. A person should be able to build their car the way they want without having someone stalk them because they don't like it.

quote Originally posted by DrCPU: If you're going to quote Leafy use his exact words - not your interpretation. He did not say "dated" he said "stone age". There is a huge difference in intent when you elect to use those words.

When I said stone age engine, the actual connotation was dated engine. I like wordplay. It means when I read it back to myself after I type it, I don't get bored right away.