The Fuel Economy on the Solstice 2.4 is because of the pig rich GM tune. As an ecotec owner I know this, because I drive one. Let's see an LS1 with a new tune put out 35+ Miles to the Gallon.
Those figures are for stock cars as delivered by Pontiac. Both have stock tunes.
OK, it bugs you. Calling them out does nothing. Move on and take whatever they say from now on with a grain of salt.
Glad I only read part of page 1 and this page. I didn't lose 15 minutes.
Before it hits the trashcan, I'd like to say that this is very likely the smartest post in this entire thread.
Shaunbags n-swingers who come to this Forum to police the HP claims of others would do well to take some of their own advice.
They tell us that we should ignore the harassing EMails, posts & videos because "It's only the Internet"
The self proclaimed highly educated know it alls from RFT could just ignore those statements that "bug" them. After all "It's only the Internet"
But then they'd have nothing to complain about would they.
BTW, Shaunbag n-swingers, (<~~~you know who you are) When is the last time any of you actually contributed anything positive to this Forum?
Cliff: it's obvoius that several of these people are attempting to commit PFF suicide via the ratings system so that they can be heros on RFT. You might want to keep this thread open a few more hours until they can get their wish.
OK, it bugs you. Calling them out does nothing. Move on and take whatever they say from now on with a grain of salt.
Glad I only read part of page 1 and this page. I didn't lose 15 minutes.
It bugs me because it takes away from people who actually try to make power. It's people that make up numbers that bring attention to others. Some guy with a 250hp sbc claims over 400hp, gets proven wrong on a dyno, now all of a sudden all people with similar engines are suspect. That is wrong, and people making those claims should keep their mouth shut. Maybe if people like that recieved more peer pressure to not blow smoke out their ass we would have less BS around here. Look at the SBC list, how many of those 300+hp engines are most likely 100hp short of that? Probably quite a few. Guys like Orief and others that buy good crate engines, tune their cars and make their rated hp should be applauded. These are the types of people we need on this forum to keep it real.
I took my N* fiero to a dyno last Tuesday, I made 175whp. I found out that I have 2 dead cylinders from an electrical problem. No problem, I posted it all over RFT and nobody has said anything negative about it. People are trying to help me figure out what is wrong, and it is not a negative atmosphere. Had I claimed I had 350hp and then dyno'd 175hp I'm sure I would recieve a lot of flack. And I would expect it. I would not sit here whining about being singled out and made fun of. Anyone that claims big numbers and underperforms on a dyno should expect some flack. I would.
He's saying if you lean it out (New tune), the MPG will will go way up, but the numbers are low like that because of how rich they run in stock form
Edit to say: I'm sure if the Solstice had a 6th gear I would willing to bet that the highway mileage would be much better also..
I know that. I also know that GM tuned both the Ecotec and LS1. I highly doubt they made the LS1 tune as economical as possible while keeping the Ecotec as rich as possible.
But more importantly, he's just trying to find a way to justify his believe that one engine is "better" than another. That's been the source of most of the problems in these types of arguments.
Originally posted by crzyone: Anyone that claims big numbers and underperforms on a dyno should expect some flack. I would.
Ok, but when does it go too far? Profanity laden emails? Following you around at car shows? Continued harassment for months, even years after the dyno run? Trolling any post you make on any internet forum they find?
Telling someone, "Dude, your dyno numbers are weak." after a dyno run is one thing. This crap goes FAR beyond that.
I don't agree with that stuff either, and as far as I know it's only 1 person doing it.
So since you & a couple of others have decided that your the policemen on the internet & are here to wipe out all the fraud, why don't you call that person out on his harassment which is also illegal?
I'll tell you why, it's because you're afraid of him & you don't want him to post a video about your piss poor showing on the dyno.
BTW: do you have any video of that dyno run?
Also how come you're ignoring the last post I made? Heck "It's only the Internet, don't let what someone else posts bug you so much. Just ignore it, they'll go away". How come you can't do what you advise others to do?
quote
Originally posted by crzyone:
The LS7 is a great engine. Compact and powerful. 505hp is impressive. Could a 7L motor make more power with DOHC heads? Definitely. It would also increase the weight and size of the engine which is a downside.
BTW: where did you get that 505hp number?
Archie
[This message has been edited by Archie (edited 03-17-2008).]
Originally posted by Cliff Pennock on 07-27-2000 11:14 AM :
I appreciate you posting this information, Archie. But saying something like "And all of this was designed by someone some of you claim doesn't know what he's doing." will generate some flames ofcourse. I'm not saying this warrants some of the replies you are getting, I'm just saying you're giving them an excuse for it.
So just ignore what you think are attacks - and only reply to serious inquiries. Likewise, if people feel they are attacked by Archie, ignore that as well. You'll see that suddenly things will become a whole lot more civilized.
So let's get back to the original topic, shall we? First one to reply with a flame is a rotten egg!
It bugs me because it takes away from people who actually try to make power. It's people that make up numbers that bring attention to others. Some guy with a 250hp sbc claims over 400hp, gets proven wrong on a dyno, now all of a sudden all people with similar engines are suspect. That is wrong, and people making those claims should keep their mouth shut. Maybe if people like that recieved more peer pressure to not blow smoke out their ass we would have less BS around here. Look at the SBC list, how many of those 300+hp engines are most likely 100hp short of that? Probably quite a few. Guys like Orief and others that buy good crate engines, tune their cars and make their rated hp should be applauded. These are the types of people we need on this forum to keep it real.
I took my N* fiero to a dyno last Tuesday, I made 175whp. I found out that I have 2 dead cylinders from an electrical problem. No problem, I posted it all over RFT and nobody has said anything negative about it. People are trying to help me figure out what is wrong, and it is not a negative atmosphere. Had I claimed I had 350hp and then dyno'd 175hp I'm sure I would recieve a lot of flack. And I would expect it. I would not sit here whining about being singled out and made fun of. Anyone that claims big numbers and underperforms on a dyno should expect some flack. I would.
Oh really? Lets "test" your theory.
Dave public statement regarding an issue with the PROM unit:
quote
Originally posted by DrCPU:
Here is my Dyno data from the run on Sunday morning. Please be warned - I am not a pro at reading these - so anything I say after in this one post is subject to laughter and rdicule - oh well, here goes!!
The wide band indicated I was running very rich - at about 11.5 instead of 13 for O2 - so it looks like a new prom and a retest after that is in order. The technician who did the testing said the HP would be a "substantial" amount better with a closer air/fuel mix at 13. Who knows. I guess I'll send a copy to Archie so he can fire it off to the guy who programmed the PROM I have in the car.
This was my first time seeing and hearing my car from the outside. Awesome engine sound. Even the Impala SS guys turned around to see where the noise was coming from. One small item of note is that the Impala SS guy that went after me only registered about 230hp and 246torque fro his LT1 powered car.. hmmm
I'm happy I did the Dyno as I have a better idea of how well tunned the car is. I missed out on a free dinner by 4hp. Thanks goes to Archie for paying for half the cost, as I was one of the first ten to register for this event.
quote
Originally posted by crzyone:
No problem, I posted it all over RFT and nobody has said anything negative about it. People are trying to help me figure out what is wrong, and it is not a negative atmosphere. Had I claimed I had 350hp and then dyno'd 175hp I'm sure I would recieve a lot of flack. And I would expect it. I would not sit here whining about being singled out and made fun of. Anyone that claims big numbers and underperforms on a dyno should expect some flack. I would.
Okay, here comes the Insurgents. Tell me, are "they" trying to help here or is it too bash Dave and V8Archie at the same time?
I took my N* fiero to a dyno last Tuesday, I made 175whp. I found out that I have 2 dead cylinders from an electrical problem. No problem, I posted it all over RFT and nobody has said anything negative about it. People are trying to help me figure out what is wrong, and it is not a negative atmosphere.
(quote) "This car is a rear engine but it uses a fwd tranny. MEaning its basically a fwd layout, but in the rear. A 330 hp engine mated to a fwd tranny is going to lose 10-15% through the drivetrain. Meaning at 15% it would lose about 45 hp. So with a good tune it should put down about 280-290 hp. SO where did the other 40-50 hp go? It dissapeared using Cletus' miracle high hp tuning techniques. He is a hack and the videos prove it."
(end of qoute).
I'm sure Cletusthehack dude had enough time to review Dave's reasons for the loss of power, right?
As for what is "fast" and what isn't, personally I don't care if my Fiero is ever faster than 12.0 in the quarter. It's not a drag car, but even if I want to drag race it, if you go faster than a 12.00, you need more safety equipment, like a roll cage. I don't want to add a cage, and I'm not going to ignore the safety rules. Others may do so at their own risk - that is their choice.
So for me, 12.00 is as fast as I'd want for a "street car."
If I were building a drag-only car, or even a "street legal" drag car, that would be different, but the car's primary purpose would be drag racing, not street driving.
Curly - thanks for putting that post up. Shawn never showed me the vidoe - it's the first time i've seen it. He's a year late.
Your post does clearly layout what I put in my build thread and the fact that my set-up has power loss elsewhere in the set-up. The tuning is one part - the cast headers another and the exhaust maybe a third. As the video states. I love the car and the reliability I have with it. It's certainly a million times better than anything Shauwn will ever own. Would I like less loss - sure - will I pay more to get 50hp. Not likely.
I chased the holy grial of HP with my Harley - and ended up cutting an engine's life in half and spent a ton of dough just to that one more HP.
It's also too bad that Shawn has such a hard time seeing that I enjoy my car regardless of it's output. Karma has a way of flatenening out those like Shawn.
That's ok, I recently found out that my V8 Fiero only dyno's 200whp. I don't even know where to start looking for the power loss, being that the car HAS NEVER BEEN ON A DYNO, NOR BEEN ON THE ROAD YET!!!!. That's alright, I just got the insurance coverage finalized today and I'll be taking it to the dyno and track once the engine is broken in. Then and only then I'll post the numbers....good or bad. Dave ps...otherwise, I'm keeping out of this thread
------------------ 1987 GT (my toy-see above), 1987 GT (wife's toy), 1986 SE soon to be VR6, certified master technician/shop owner www.njautobahn.com
I just did a butt dyno on in my wifes Saturn and it has like a bazillion HP, I passed 3 Lamborghini's and 2 F16s on the way back from the store. They didn't know what hit them.
Inside every Z06 is an LS7 aluminum-block 7.0 Liter V8 that produces a Society of Automotive Engineers-certified 505 hp and 470 lb.-ft. of torque. Hand-built at the GM Performance Build Center in Wixom, Mich., the LS7 engine contains a litany of racing-derived components, such as an eight-quart dry-sump lubrication system, titanium valves and connecting rods, forged-steel crankshaft with six-bolt main bearings, high-profile cam, and Computer Numerical Controlled (CNC) machined heads for better air/fuel flow. Even with its impressive performance, the engine does not incur a federal government gas-guzzler penalty.
[This message has been edited by crzyone (edited 03-17-2008).]
Keep in mind, I'm not a engine guru, just a person who likes a tweaked out Fiero.
Okay now, please explain your "theory" as to "why" the bashing?
Theory? Ok, I'll do my best. A 330hp crate engine went to a dyno and made 238hp at the wheels.
I would say that is a low number, but again it has a TPI intake and doesn't breathe up top. Maybe with more information from different crate engines and dynos we can asume that a TPI manifold will lose power on anything that needs air to support 300+ hp at the flywheel. I would say his dyno was helpful, maybe not the power he expected but it's still good info. I'm not one of the people making negative comments.
I'll tell you why, it's because you're afraid of him & you don't want him to post a video about your piss poor showing on the dyno.
I would say you are the one that is afraid of him. Stop speaking to him through PFF and confront him yourself. You are both throwing snowballs from your snow forts like little kids.
I would say you are the one that is afraid of him. Stop speaking to him through PFF and confront him yourself. You are both throwing snowballs from your snow forts like little kids.
What kind of confrontation would you like to see? What words could possibly be said by either person to make anything change? Are you suggesting they fight it out physically? Perhaps dueling pistols at dawn?
One day Shaunbag is going to stalk the wrong person and end up a statistic.
I'm saying since Shaun can't come here, by all means Archie can go over there and help keep this place clean. 90% of the trash talk threads are about him and Shaun anyways.
Ok, so you can go to the GM website & post up information from there to support the point you're trying to make at the time.
But, V-8 Fiero owners can't post up information from the GM website to describe the engine they put in their Fiero without beginning to "Bug" you?
Maybe you should find something better to do with your time. You could go out & get your car running. Or you could go over to RFT & brag about your conquests here. Or you you could just ignore the things that "bug" you after all "It's only the Internet, ignore it".
BTW, you didn't answer my other questions & just like you, denmanding that everyone must make their post comply with your orders, I demand answers.........
I'll repeat them for you.......
So since you & a couple of others have decided that your the policemen on the internet & are here to wipe out all the fraud, why don't you call that person out on his harassment which is also illegal?
I'll tell you why, it's because you're afraid of him & you don't want him to post a video about your piss poor showing on the dyno.
BTW: do you have any video of that dyno run?
Also how come you're ignoring the last post I made? Heck "It's only the Internet, don't let what someone else posts bug you so much. Just ignore it, they'll go away". How come you can't do what you advise others to do?
Archie
[This message has been edited by Archie (edited 03-17-2008).]
I'm not one of the people making negative comments.
Yet, you stated that "they" RTF where very heplful and understanding when your HP numbers were low. So, were's that "helpfulness" and understanding when it came to Dave's dyno numbers? Clearly, the evidence from Dave's thread pointed to the reason "why" the numbers were low a year earlier, so how did RFT mis this point?
Clearly, the evidence from Dave's thread pointed to the reason "why" the numbers were low a year earlier, so how did RFT mis this point?
I don't see ALL of RFT "bashing" Dave's car. I see one, and maybe two people (in the posted link) making disparaging comments. There are more than 30 regular, active posters over "there", and only a couple "bashers." Please don't lump all of us in with the few who are.
Dave also didn't post over there looking for answers as to why the output was low. Looking at the AFR and HP graphs, it seems pretty obvious why the power is down. His chip is set on the rich side. He also seemed to have a plan in hand for resolving the issue:
quote
Originally posted by DrCPU:
The technician who did the testing said the HP would be a "substantial" amount better with a closer air/fuel mix at 13. Who knows. I guess I'll send a copy to Archie so he can fire it off to the guy who programmed the PROM I have in the car.
Taking that fuel out should show a considerable improvement. The downside to mailorder-type tuning is that the person doing the tuning has to make certain assumptions about how the engine is set up. In this instance, the tuner may have burned his standard Camaro chip (for that motor) that is setup for long tube headers. Properly tuned, long-tube headers will vastly improve cylinder scavenging, and during overlap can actually help suck intake charge into the cylinder. The effect is significantly lessened with shortie-style headers, and virtually eliminated with cast manifolds.
Also, the 330hp crate motor was likely rated with long tubes, as that is the more common way they are installed.
(As an aside, madcurl, you have some great ideas for your cars, I'm not sure if I've mentioned that in any of your threads or not. I love the one that has the 350Z(?) rear window.)
Originally posted by ???????:fwd tranny is going to lose 10-15% through the drive train
i'm sorry why do people think that HP loss though the transmission is a linear effect? if it takes lets say 15hp to turn a transmission with a stock motor then why dose it all of the sudden go up when you mate it to a more higher horsepower motor? i just don't get it....
[This message has been edited by HI-TECH (edited 03-17-2008).]
Not much bashing on RTF of Dave's car now, but the video demonstrates the connection piece. A poor taste in conduct with a title that clearly states, "Cletus Sucks" in the opening title. However, my main connecting thought is, "how a N* low dyno runs were somehow dealt with soft gloves (due to some issues he's stated) vs. how Dave's dyno run was harshly criticized despite Dave's explanation; yet the video clearly show their intent.....bashing of Archie.
quote
Originally posted by FieroJimmy:
(As an aside, madcurl, you have some great ideas for your cars, I'm not sure if I've mentioned that in any of your threads or not. I love the one that has the 350Z(?) rear window.)
Thanks. I hope to have it finished by the 25th.
[This message has been edited by madcurl (edited 03-17-2008).]
i'm sorry why do people think that HP loss though the transmission is a linear effect? if it takes lets say 15hp to turn a transmission with a stock motor then why dose it all of the sudden go up when you mate it to a more higher horsepower motor? i just don't get it....
Because the faster you try to accelerate something, the more power it takes. Consider, for example, a car that has 100whp. This hypothetical car can go from 0-60mph in 15 seconds. Now if you take the same car and double the power to 200whp, does it now do 0-60mph in 7.5 seconds? How about if we double it again, 400whp, 0-60mph in 3.75 seconds? The car is the same weight, it's moving through the same air (over less distance, true), but it isn't a fixed hp/mph relationship. The same thing happens inside a transmission (or a differential, transfer case, etc.) the bearings and gears meshing all have their own resistance to rotation that must be overcome in order to speed it up.
Dave, Shaun, and myself have all talked, let that one go. I respect crzyone for posting such a low dyno run, and owning up to his car running like **** . The new corvette has a badge on the side that says 505HP, so I assumed that was the FWHP rating. I agree, Archie head over to RFT and talk to shaun monitor to monitor, wasting peoples time over here throwing snowballs is a waste. Maybe if you two talked civily we could end this once and for all. I got 15 negs out of this thread and I said to each his own on page two. Two other people say it and get pluses, whatever. Reconvein on RFT and talk this one out. I am sick of all of this.
i'm sorry why do people think that HP loss though the transmission is a linear effect? if it takes lets say 15hp to turn a transmission with a stock motor then why dose it all of the sudden go up when you mate it to a more higher horsepower motor? i just don't get it....
I've always seen the standard number at 15% not HP, so yes it is a sliding scale.
Originally posted by HI-TECH: i'm sorry why do people think that HP loss though the transmission is a linear effect? if it takes lets say 15hp to turn a transmission with a stock motor then why dose it all of the sudden go up when you mate it to a more higher horsepower motor? i just don't get it....
Short answer: because it does.
Long answer: because friction losses between gear teeth (in a transmission) is dependent on the torque and the RPM they are spinning. Or in other words, horsepower.
You can think of meshing gear teeth like sliding a cinder block across your driveway. It will take more power from you to move if the block weighs 3000lbs (extra torque), or if you slide it 300 mph (extra rpm).
Dave, Shaun, and myself have all talked, let that one go. I respect crzyone for posting such a low dyno run, and owning up to his car running like **** . The new corvette has a badge on the side that says 505HP, so I assumed that was the FWHP rating. I agree, Archie head over to RFT and talk to shaun monitor to monitor, wasting peoples time over here throwing snowballs is a waste. Maybe if you two talked civily we could end this once and for all. I got 15 negs out of this thread and I said to each his own on page two. Two other people say it and get pluses, whatever. Reconvein on RFT and talk this one out. I am sick of all of this.
If you're so sick of it then explain why many times you post here like you're trying to get along then turn right around post BS on RFT on your conquests here?
I'm saying since Shaun can't come here, by all means Archie can go over there and help keep this place clean.
Yeah, Go over to RFT where your posts get edited, Your title gets edited, and no matter what you post Shaunna and the Nutette's will harass you constantly. Then when you actually prove Shaunna is lying and make a fool out of him, He'll have his Admin buddy ban you.
Again, Just ignore him. It doesn't take much to see what an idiot he really is.
BTW ~ Trying to reason with an obsessive and pathetic person like Shaunna is like trying to teach a pig to sing, It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
[This message has been edited by Oreif (edited 03-17-2008).]
Originally posted by madcurl: my main connecting thought is, "how a N* low dyno runs were somehow dealt with soft gloves (due to some issues he's stated)
I went to the dyno for a tuning session. This means taking a car with a standalong ecu and having it tuned. They come with a base tune, and this particular one was nowhere close to where it should be. I expected to spend 2-3 hours on the dyno with a laptop fine tuning my engine to get the most potential possible @ $200/hr. What I thought was a really bad tune turned out to be 2 dead cylinders which became more aparent as time went on. The car was making more and more power but was becoming rougher and rougher. We started pulling injector plugs and found 2 dead cylinders.
The reason I did not fix the car at the dyno and continue is because I was booked in for a certain amount of time for tuning and that was it. Now I'm back at work and on my next days off I plan on going back with issues resolved and continue tuning. I won't stop until my car is making all the power it is supposed to be.
I am the only person running a Big Stuff 3 ecu on a northstar in a fiero. Its not like there are a lot of people that can give advice because nobody has experience with this computer. In hind sight, I should have installed a pre 2000 N* and ran a 7730 ecu. I suspect my problem is a coil, spark plug, wiring or ecu. It's electrical and will take time to narrow down. To pull my coil pack I have to drop the rear of my engine cradle to give me enough room to pull the coil pack off.
Archie, no video. I can only imagine why you want one, but here is a picture.
Yeah, Go over to RFT where your posts get edited, Your title gets edited, and no matter what you post Shaunna and the Nutette's will harass you constantly. Then when you actually catch Shaunna lying and make a fool out of him, He'll have his Admin buddy ban you.
Again, Just ignore him. It doesn't take much to see what an idiot he really is.
Not to worry, I'm not about to go over there & go thru what you & the others did.
There's nothing to talk out anyway. He's not anyone that understands reason.
I think it's funny that he took your SN "Oreif" & no argues with himself.
Someday, he'll say the wrong thing to the wrong person.
Unfortunately I don't think I'll make the 25th. Are you going to make it out to Carlisle? I should definitely be there, it's practically in my back yard.
Dude, it has been like 7 AND A HALF YEARS since i posted that quote from cliff, I would think you would atleast try something that was suggested by someone of equal public standing... 7 years and still the same thing is going on
I'll post this just incase you missed it... and it isnt only geared towards you but to everyone that gets involved in these
quote
Originally posted by Cliff Pennock on 07-27-2000 11:14 AM :
I appreciate you posting this information, Archie. But saying something like "And all of this was designed by someone some of you claim doesn't know what he's doing." will generate some flames ofcourse. I'm not saying this warrants some of the replies you are getting, I'm just saying you're giving them an excuse for it.
So just ignore what you think are attacks - and only reply to serious inquiries. Likewise, if people feel they are attacked by Archie, ignore that as well. You'll see that suddenly things will become a whole lot more civilized.
So let's get back to the original topic, shall we? First one to reply with a flame is a rotten egg!
