I also got the notice in the mail about KIT CAR, the writing has been on the wall for some time as a majority of the articles have been based on Cobra replicas. Don't get me wrong I love the Cobra kits, but I have an keen interest in the Fiero based kits, which have been lacking in coverage the last few years save for an occasional Diablo kit now and then. With the loss of KIT CAR where will someone like me turn for info on Fiero based kits? I know some here may think it blasphemous to cut up a Fiero, but I have owned 4 Fieros and loved and continue to love the car, but it was the magazines such as KIT CAR that opened my eyes to Fieros at a young age. Just seems like an end of an era. Is this the end of Fiero based replicas as well?
...but it was the magazines such as KIT CAR that opened my eyes to Fieros...
Same here! I wanted to build a Ferrari on a Fiero chassis - until I saw a Fastback GT bodystyle! Looked great as is - no rebody needed! I bought my 87 GT shortly afterward (1990).
Only later did I find out about the Mera - I'd have likely tried to get one of those instead.
Originally posted by bomaze: Just seems like an end of an era. Is this the end of Fiero based replicas as well?
IMO I think not, because of the numbers and money involved the Fiero will out live any replica base Fiero. Plus, all that is needed is tweaking. A tweaked Fieros will always be a Fiero. Whereas replica kits are always playing "catch-up" thus are soon viewed as "out dated" when the next best kit is on the market and sadly people will always question if your car's a fake.
Tweak your Fiero and there's no need to be faking. ------------------
"Friends don't let friends drive stock"
[This message has been edited by madcurl (edited 01-07-2009).]
The end of kit cars? Tell that to V8 Archie who makes the Finale kit.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, 3.4" Pulley, N* TB, LS1 MAF, Flotech Exhaust Autolite 104's Custom CAI 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. 87GT - 3.4L Turbocharged engine, modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
If your needing a KitCar fix, try searching the net for a couple of forums, .... Myself, I belong to a couple of them, one is primarily Ferrari based and the other Lamborghini....
IMO I think not, because of the numbers and money involved the Fiero will out live any replica base Fiero. Plus, all that is needed is tweaking. A tweaked Fieros will always be a Fiero. Whereas replica kits are always playing "catch-up" thus are soon viewed as "out dated" when the next best kit is on the market and sadly people will always question if your car's a fake.
Tweak your Fiero and there's no need to be faking.
I might be biased, but I hope my car won't be viewed as dated. I am not worrying about playing catch-up. And I could care less if someone questions my car's authenticity - I always tell them it's a fiero - I'm not trying to fool anyone. People have said fake and i reply - "No its a real car". I tweaked my fiero just like others do mods and replicas (All the same to me).
Whereas replica kits are always playing "catch-up" thus are soon viewed as "out dated" when the next best kit is on the market and sadly people will always question if your car's a fake.
Tweak your Fiero and there's no need to be faking.
Not so, my friend. To me, tweaking = being creative, building creative Same thing with Kitcars replica, rebody, kitcar = bing creative, building creative
It is simply the different "medium" we work with, so to speak A great football player and a great basketball player....neither is best or lesser....they are both atheletes
I have to tell you I've never gotten into the depths of badging and rabid replica duplication that many do I just like creating, building, and generally playing around
I've had owners of real Panteras come up to my car and think it was the real thing...no joke
Last month, the owner of a horse farm up the road brought his Ferrari down to my place. Seemed he needed to sell it and since I obviously was into owning a couple of Panteras, he thought I could afford to buy his car. A most interesting conversation and ride ensued after the word Fiero got out.
You may eventually see the death of kit cars not because of the lack of parts or popularity, but the unwillingness for people to do the work themselves. More and more people would rather sit and watch survivor all day.
Replicas are dwindling in the US but going VERY strong in the UK - they have a very active community over there.
Thanks! I took advantage of the free copy offer. I feel that the same creativity and hard work goes into building a Fiero based replica as it does modding an original. To each his own, but with the kitcar market shrinking day by day, the choices are very much limited to the person who is looking into replicas as a form of automotive creative expression.
IMO I think not, because of the numbers and money involved the Fiero will out live any replica base Fiero. Plus, all that is needed is tweaking. A tweaked Fieros will always be a Fiero. Whereas replica kits are always playing "catch-up" thus are soon viewed as "out dated" when the next best kit is on the market and sadly people will always question if your car's a fake.
Madcurl the creativity you have shown in building your cars most definitely shows what can be done to the Fiero. But at the same time there are just as many people who are passionate about replica building, and it just so happens that the Fiero is the perfect platform to create a majority of the Ferr@ri kits that were once more abundantly available. Don't get me wrong your cars are truly impressive, rolling works of automotive art from a person who definitely has a keen eye for taking the Fiero to the next level of customizing. Just be more open minded to the people who travel a different path when it comes to the end result of creatively modding or tweaking their Fieros. To be totally honest my next Fiero project is going to be heavily influenced by all the work you have done on your cars! But I first have to complete the 512TR spyder kit that I have. It is possible to live in both worlds, EXPENSIVE but possible.
You may eventually see the death of kit cars not because of the lack of parts or popularity, but the unwillingness for people to do the work themselves. More and more people would rather sit and watch survivor all day.
You have most MFG are on a small scale run by people not alway suited to run a company.
You had issues with legal rights to some cars.
You had so many people buy them and never complete them.
You have today Ferrari 308's that cost about the same as to build a fake one.
You can make all the right moves in this market you will all right. But it is as much work as selling condoms at the Vatican.
Custom FIeros will always be the largest area as these cars age. They are cheap and you can do so much for so liitle money. Also some replacement parts will be hard to find so things like MR Mikes seats and the like will be easier to find and buy.
[This message has been edited by hyperv6 (edited 01-09-2009).]
As Ferraries, Countaches, Diablos, Panteras, etc age...the cost of both maintenance and rebuilding becomes astronomical.
I know because I've been seriously aproached by more than one Pantera owner, frustrated by both the cost of having serious metal reconstruction issues farmed out to others who can do the work...and frustrated at the time such work takes...that they think a fiberglass rebody is actually feasable.
I'd never expect to "make money" over such an endeavor, thats really not the point.
But if you think you can pick up a F, C, D or P for 20K to 40K and have a roller, think again. Get ready to drop another 50K.
I might be biased, but I hope my car won't be viewed as dated. I am not worrying about playing catch-up.
All cars are dated... no car past or present are immune. If you've notice a few kit kar forums some have moved beyond the older Ferrari/lamborghini base replicas and the latest is the Enzo replica thus people (some) are playing catch-up. Granted, I agree your not playing, but many others are. Even the real classic exotics play catch-up by adding better items onto their cars.
quote
Originally posted by opm2000:
Not so, my friend. To me, tweaking = being creative, building creative Same thing with Kitcars replica, rebody, kitcar = bing creative, building creative David Breeze
I agree it's "creativity" but as a whole the kit kar industry lacks serious imagination. They cannot build anything new. It's as-if they're stuck in a mental loop and can't go beyond the pen/pencil or note pad. Thus countless number of venders are producing the same product over and over again- some good and some bad. The examples on both sides are endless.
Thus a potential customer who spends 70k for a replica is stuck with other kits that sucks
A good example for around 30k or so.
A "Tasteless" examples for a lot less;
Thus owners of replica are faced with a triple stigma.
1. Fiero (false lies regarding Fires and parts bin parts). 2. Kit car based upon a Fiero. 3. Shoddy workmanship from past and present venders.
Granted, if venders started with something new or using a Fiero base framed then there would be a need to badge everything to death or front.
True that Curly, No matter how much we try to argue this fact. It can be simply put. If you have to put a badge from another vehicle other than a Fiero on your Fiero, then u are trying to resurrect someone else's design. The creativity is limited to the replication process. If however you take the creativity and you apply your own twist, hence design something that hasn't been done millions of times before, you are truly creative, not merely a " builder".
When it comes to creativity in Kitcars.... *A "builder" is someone who constructs an imitation of a designed product for its visual impact or essence. (accuracy is important)
*A " Designer ( has lots of creativity)" is someone who will take something and improve its visual impact, or altogether go through the creative process to design a new unseen product that can exceed production limitations.
Just my opinion, doesn't mean squat....
I side with Curly....I do however see things for what they are, I appreciate the work and passion put into replicas, i judge then more on quality than design and creativity.
-Alex
[This message has been edited by FieroGTRwideboby (edited 01-14-2009).]
The replica business seems to be stuck of verious water down version of the Lamborghini. You'd think with all of the talent they'd move onto something new.
Perhaps from a legal stand point none in these pics are badged as such.
[This message has been edited by madcurl (edited 01-19-2009).]
The replica business seems to be stuck of verious water down version of the Lamborghini. You'd think with all of the talent they'd move onto something new.
Perhaps from a legal stand point none in these pics are badged as such.
I kind of agree with both sides... While majorly tweaking a Fiero can bring a lot of gratification, kit cars are still very desirable. However, Curley makes an excellent point - Every kit you see is either a one-off (Fino & Finale), or it's an older car ('91 Diablo, 25th Countach, GT40), or it's a look-alike that's not quite there (Zorba). IMHO, any kit can look good, and any tweaking can look equally as good, but for me, I wouldn't want to drive something that kinda almost sorta looks like a Murcielago, and the older Lambos are old news to me. In fact, copying any Lambo at this stage is old news to me. One-off kits like Archie's, the Jalapeno, and others are definitely cool, but if you're going to do a one-off, why not design it yourself (no offense intended Archie ), like Curley & Troyboy? And if you're going to copy something, why not copy something newer? I know if there was a Fiero based Cadillac XLR kit, I'd ALL over that... MSRP is around $86k, and I'm pretty sure you could build it for less, maybe in the 30's or so. Plus, you'd have the advantage of better gas mileage. XLR estimates 15/24 city/highway, but building it on a Fiero with fiberglass panels, I'm pretty sure it'd be a lot lighter, and then if you dumped a 3800SC in it, you're probly looking at mpg in the 30's.
Anyway, anybody got an XLR they wanna let me take molds of?
Anyway, anybody got an XLR they wanna let me take molds of?
Chip Foose did a nice XLR custom on the TV show "Rides." I thought it was pretty sleek using a brushed aluminum top, custom front and rear bumpers and some other goodies. Granted, the first XLR's are a bit cheaper now cause the newer ones are 100k. I saw a really nice XLR with a body kit at SEMA.
If you've notice many builders are now following some of the styles originated with Ferrari. Although all to some degree copy each others styles, but there's enough room for alteration of parts that it needn't happen. however, in this case the nose is strictly a Enzo influence. Granted, it would have been nice if Lamborghini did it first.
Look to see many coping the "Enzo" style nose just like many did many years ago similar to the Tessarosa's side fins.
IIRC, Shelby has already sued FFR before and lost......
Carroll Shelby is going for deep pockets. Shelby's lawyers are suing the suppliers too. That'll tie you up in court for $10-30k for each of the persons on the list. Somebody may have used the name "Shelby" or something that voided the first lawsuit. Might have been a write-up in a article or something and thus the lawyers are pouncing the pavement looking for a "pay-day."
Carroll Shelby Lawsuit NewsShelby Sues Factory Five Again!
This past December, Factory Five was served with a lawsuit from Carroll Shelby. The claims in the suit focus primarily over the shape or the “trade-dress” of the Type 65 Coupe. We were a bit amazed at this lawsuit as Shelby agreed to a court order that specifically precluded him from doing just this.
Indeed. in February, 2001, FFR and Shelby mutually agreed to the entry of a Consent Judgment (“Order”) in the litigation brought by Shelby in the United States District Court, District of Massachusetts whereby, among other things, Factory Five agreed not to use the word “Cobra” to describe our products. Factory Five agreed to this since it was not using these marks anyway and, for obvious reasons, it wanted to avoid any association whatsoever with Shelby. In return, Shelby agreed to forever dismiss any claims relative to the shape of the Factory Five Roadster and Type 65 Coupe and other designs. The exact words of the 2001 Order are as follows…
”… Shelby dismisses with prejudice all claims that have been asserted or could have been asserted relative to the trade dress or designs of FFR’s kits, including but not limited to the kits known as the 427 Roadster and the Type 65 Coupe…”Further, if Shelby believed that FFR was in violation of any part of the Order; for instance one of our guys inadvertently wrote an advertisement using the word COBRA, the Order required Shelby to give FFR 30 days notice to remedy any purported breach.
In sum, pursuant to the Order, Shelby is precluded from filing a lawsuit without the agreed to notice and opportunity to cure. FFR required that this language be included in the Order because we knew Shelby was litigious to the extreme and we also knew that the entire planet, all the customers, and the industry in general, refers to these cars as “Cobras” in a purely generic sense and the risk that someone might make a mistake was real. To this day, I believe that FFR is among the one or two companies/entities/people that consistently identifies our products as our own rather than “Cobras”.
Even worse, not only did Shelby violate the Order in filing the lawsuit, he sued over the shape of a car that had already been litigated and dismissed eight years ago. What do we do now? We have filed a motion seeking to have the California Court to change the venue to Federal Court in Massachusetts which endorsed and entered the Order in 2001. If that is allowed, we will then seek to have the lawsuit dismissed as well as damages and/or sanctions for malicious prosecution and contempt of court. All this is just a big waste of time and money for FFR.
The fact that the website FFCOBRA was named along with the good guys at LK Motorsports is, in my opinion, harassment. FFR removed our link to FFCobra, not because it was a violation of the Order or because we had to, but instead to mitigate the litigation costs, particularly where Shelby is claiming that FFCOBRA is an agent of FFR. Nothing could be further from the truth. FFR is just fine financially and is not asking any customers for legal defense money.
The issues involving the claims against FFCobra and LK Motorsports are another thing. Bill runs FFCobra and since we have cancelled our ads with them, I think customers banding together to defend their own rights is a good thing.Some other things to consider. We hear that Shelby is suing Kirkham for counterfeiting after using them as a supplier for years (you didn’t think that Shelby built those aluminum body cars did you?).
Shelby makes claims against a website that is customer based and doesn’t sell or make “Cobras”. Why didn’t he sue Club Cobra or any of the myriad of websites that use the word “Cobra”. Why is Shelby suing us? Who knows. Some people familiar with this suit believe that Shelby saw our Land Speed Record Coupe across from his booth at the November SEMA show and got mad, simple as that. The original Coupe went 186 mph or so, yet FFR’s went 216 mph and next year the crew at SoFast Racing say that 250-275 mph is not out of the question at Bonneville.
Anyone from Shelby is welcome to join us on the salt or on any track in the country where we prefer to settle our differences rather than in court.Unfortunately, the memory of what Shelby did in the 60’s is rapidly being replaced with the image of the most litigious guy in the auto industry. Even Car & Driver Magazine recently type-cast as Carroll as “$helby” (notice the dollar sign) in an article that sadly chronicled his never-ending legal nonsense. Some familiar?In the end, FFR knows that it has done the right thing and fully believes that it will prevail in this most frivolous action. Stay tuned. *Sigh
[This message has been edited by madcurl (edited 01-25-2009).]
Anyone from Shelby is welcome to join us on the salt or on any track in the country where we prefer to settle our differences rather than in court.Unfortunately, the memory of what Shelby did in the 60’s is rapidly being replaced with the image of the most litigious guy in the auto industry. Even Car & Driver Magazine recently type-cast as Carroll as “$helby” (notice the dollar sign) in an article that sadly chronicled his never-ending legal nonsense. Some familiar?In the end, FFR knows that it has done the right thing and fully believes that it will prevail in this most frivolous action. Stay tuned. *Sigh
This is so true.. Shelby is all about money and lawsuits and sold the "Cobra" brand to Ford anyway.. In 1997 Ford granted Shelby America the exclusive right to use the Cobra name, but not ownership. Shelby ownes the rights to 289, 427 S/C, Shelby, Shelby 427 S/C and Daytona Coupe.. So FF mentioned 427 on the website and Shelby ownes the rights to that #.. Thats in the complaint against FF.. Shelby is primarily going after the Daytona in this lawsuit so its not about the Cobra so much this time..
I received my alternative European Car magazine today and from the looks of it- mine expires in July 09. It's not the typical Luxury & Exotic articles I expect, but I didn't have a choice in the matter. I hate paying for something I don't want!
As a new Fiero based Ferrari Replica owner I thought I would post up my quick .02 cents. I have been a "car guy" my whole life and have played with muscle cars, European cars (Jags and BMW's) as well as Japanese cars. The car that I have always lusted after and knew I could never own was the Ferrari F40, very limited run and they still resell in the range of 500K. So, whats a guy to do? The replica venue was the only one open to me. I can build my car the way I want to while having the styling that I have always lusted after for me that is what it is all about!
My car will be badged out and I will be trying to make as close as a replica of the real thing as I can but I will proudly tell anyone that asks that it is not the real thing and that I built it myself. For me that is what it is all about, well take it for what it is as it is only the .02 cents of a total noob on here
As a new Fiero based Ferrari Replica owner I thought I would post up my quick .02 cents. I have been a "car guy" my whole life and have played with muscle cars, European cars (Jags and BMW's) as well as Japanese cars. The car that I have always lusted after and knew I could never own was the Ferrari F40, very limited run and they still resell in the range of 500K. So, whats a guy to do? The replica venue was the only one open to me. I can build my car the way I want to while having the styling that I have always lusted after for me that is what it is all about!
My car will be badged out and I will be trying to make as close as a replica of the real thing as I can but I will proudly tell anyone that asks that it is not the real thing and that I built it myself. For me that is what it is all about, well take it for what it is as it is only the .02 cents of a total noob on here
Matt
Due replicas over-all design, badging or non badging... it's a catch -22. The terms and conditions are dictated and are set by the general public. The comments can range from the uninformed punk kid with a Honda rice kit wanting to challenge you at a light or from the well informed- the examples will very.
WARNING; NWS
[This message has been edited by madcurl (edited 02-13-2009).]
As for the mag; I for one don't mis Kit Car mag. We canceled our subscription years ago. It had become nothing more than Cobra kit car mag for years. And I'm not a Cobra-hater, we built a nice FFV 5.0 Cobra. When you basicly only cover what your advertisers sell and lose toutch with your readers, they go away.
I know if there was a Fiero based Cadillac XLR kit, I'd ALL over that... MSRP is around $86k, and I'm pretty sure you could build it for less, maybe in the 30's or so. Plus, you'd have the advantage of better gas mileage. XLR estimates 15/24 city/highway, but building it on a Fiero with fiberglass panels, I'm pretty sure it'd be a lot lighter, and then if you dumped a 3800SC in it, you're probly looking at mpg in the 30's.
Anyway, anybody got an XLR they wanna let me take molds of?
As for the mag; I for one don't mis Kit Car mag. We canceled our subscription years ago. It had become nothing more than Cobra kit car mag for years. And I'm not a Cobra-hater, we built a nice FFV 5.0 Cobra. When you basicly only cover what your advertisers sell and lose toutch with your readers, they go away.
Francis has it nailed right on the head.
I used to do a lot of Kit Car stuff & I used to advertise once in a while.
May times, I'd show up at a Kit Car show with something new or exciting & I'd be told that if I was advertising I'd get a lot better coverage. Once in a while they'd mention me in passing in an article about a show but that would be it.
If one of my customers who was a vendor of some kind of Kit Car had me stuff on his car I'd get a mention in passing.
It was the big advertiser $$$ that kept those magazines afloat.
Over the years, I have seen a lot of badly built kit cars built by vendors get big articles written about them & most of the time that vendor was also a big advertiser.
I really think that a big reason the Kit Car industry has dropped off so much is that the magazines catered to the advertisers & not to the readers. Bigger magazines like Hot Rod, Car Craft etc. cater to the readers & they're not afraid to mention that a certain product from a big advertiser didn't meet the grade. The smaller Kit Car type magazines couldn't do that because a thread from an advertiser to pull his ads out of a Mag. could easily get an Editor fired.
(edited to add)>>>>>
If the magazines would have done a few features on non-advertisers new or interesting products, they could have helped the industry grow & would have made better advertiser $$$ down the road. But when a new product developer has already dumped his whole budget into a new product, he doesn't necessarily have a lot of $$$ left for advertising until he starts to get a return on his investment. In those days you couldn't get word out to the public on your new porduct without some help from the magazines & you couldn't get help from the magazines without a advertising contract. Even then many times articles on new products (even from advertisers) wouldn't get published in the magazines until 6 to 12 months after the magazine had gathered info for the article. Archie
[This message has been edited by Archie (edited 02-14-2009).]
I still remember a few key articles from Kit kar mag. One article featured a discusion involving all of the various Fiero engine swap companies. That article played a major role in determining which engine I wanted for my Fiero. I also remember the first article featuring the Finale and towards the end of the year they'd mention all of the various kit kar companies, names, and addresses.
Too bad the magazine lost sight of their main core.... the reader(s).
Right up front, we must state that there is a very high likelihood that the following is not entirely true. With that said, here's the skinny on what we think we know: Thanks to local copyright laws, cops in Ostuni, Italy have reportedly confiscated a Toyota MR2 cut to look an awful lot like a Ferrari 355 Berlinetta. And they intend to crush it.
So much so that the British-made phony Italian was being touted as the real thing -- an obvious scam. As to why the authorities intend to destroy the car, let's listen to what one of the cops involved had to say: "It was a good fake but just a fake, Ferrari is one of Italy's crown jewels. We can't allow cheap copies." Yes, well, we guess that makes sense. But are the cops allowed to crush the car out of some odd sense of damaged Italian pride? Looks like it. We here at Autoblog feel it's our duty to go ahead and give you a surefire tip on how to keep your faker from meeting the same fate – nobody suspects a Fiero-bodied Ferrari 308. Hint, hint. Thanks to Cosmin for bringing this to our attention!
I thought this was an old story. Apparently they found another one to make an example of. Although it's not really a good copy. Jeez... Next they'll be crushing anything that looks like a Fiat.
Funny i used to want a replica lambo sooo bad, until i saw what you could do to a fiero.
The Silver choptop changed my opinion big time.
I don't have a problem with those however who choose to build a replica, i just hate it when they build crap ones. If you are not going to go all out and try and make it as nice as possible, then you should probably stay out of the game.
I have seen some really, really nice replicas that look as good or better than the original, but more often than not they end up being embarrasments as the mounting costs force too many corners to be cut.
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), like Curley & Troyboy? And if you're going to copy something, why not copy something newer? I know if there was a Fiero based Cadillac XLR kit, I'd ALL over that... MSRP is around $86k, and I'm pretty sure you could build it for less, maybe in the 30's or so. Plus, you'd have the advantage of better gas mileage. XLR estimates 15/24 city/highway, but building it on a Fiero with fiberglass panels, I'm pretty sure it'd be a lot lighter, and then if you dumped a 3800SC in it, you're probly looking at mpg in the 30's.
