Edit - Thanks for fixing the the title, Cliff.

I posted about this a while back, and everyone thought I was mistaken.
I wasn't so sure, myself, until I saw the picture in the (paper) catalog.

Here's a link.
Unfortunately, it doesn't show the rear of the block. You can "sort of" see it from the front view.

It's a short deck race block.
From the product description: "Olds Aurora V-8 bell housing bolt pattern (12.25 max flywheel diameter)"
The picture in the paper catalog clearly shows the V6 bellhousing bolt pattern.

So what's the catch? It's between $3600-4000 for just a bare block.
The head bolt holes and lifter bores are not drilled. (Wonder if it can be drilled for LSx heads. I don't know if the bore centers are the same. )
Just about everything about it will require custom machine work or fabrication.

But it is a SBC that looks like it will bolt up.


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Raydar
88 4.9 Formula IMSA Fastback

Read Nealz Nuze! Praise the Lowered!

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 12-30-2010).]

Interesting. Scan of the catalog page? I had seen that block before, but had not known anyone to find a picture of the bolt pattern.

Short deck *and* raised cam? interesting...

Dunno what manifold options are available, but the list is probably short and starts with "sheet metal".

At a guess, you could be into that engine for $15K by the time you bolt it together. Playing with different bore centers gets expensive fast.

I believe the production SBC bore center was 4.440, a dimension shared with the LS1.

Almost the same but the lower right bolt hole is moved outward by about one inch with modification it would bolt up to the getrag or the automatics that use "GM small corporate/metric pattern"


edit to add

The sb2 block and heads remind me of the raised cam with 50mm roller needle bearings and short deck. which is still BOP pattern. the Sb2 heads will work on the 400 sbc but not the 350.

[This message has been edited by hobodude34 (edited 12-29-2010).]

Olds Aurora V-8 bell housing bolt pattern is for the custom indy olds/chevy race motor
it was NOT a stock block as no parts swap from a N* or the street Aurora version
the Olds Aurora V-8 indy motor is a 3/4 scale sort of looks like the street motor
so I strongly suspect it is not a usefull option

anyway is not the ls4 chevy V8 FWD a bolt in and cheaper too

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Question wonder and be wierd
are you kind?

ls4 comes with Displacement on demand technology sounds like the best option.. i know my moms impala ss has it .. "Drooling"...i wish i had that engine/trans...

I think Raydar is correct about the bolt pattern. IRL Aurora's don't even vaguely look like any bolt pattern we've ever seen, this block clearly has that all too familiar trapezoidal shape to the bellhousing bolt bosses that we can see. I think they really meant that it has the Northstar pattern.

But the block is pretty much worthless to the average joe. Its a short deck engine, which means pretty much nothing factory but a crankshaft is going to fit. This engine needs thousands of dollars worth of machine work alone. But, it's interesting to see one variant albeit a distant variant of the SBC as we know it.

I'll try to get a scan of the rear face of the block. I still have the paper catalog.

When I posted this, I wasn't making any claims or suggestions as to the viability of this block for a swap. Certainly there are much more expedient ways to stuff a Chevy V8 into a Fiero. Just that it might be able to be done, if you had a lot of spare cash laying around, owned a machine shop, and didn't mind sourcing all the other "unobtainium" bits and pieces that would be required.

BBL.

Even if the bore offset is the same as the LSx blocks, I don't think you'd be able to use LSx heads, due to the difference with how the lifter valley is on the LSx vs the SBC. I'm also not sure how the oil galleys and water jackets line up either, which would be another concern. Even if you got the LSx heads to work, you'd need a totally custom intake manifold to deal with covering and sealing the lifter valley as well, since that is a function of the intake on the SBC, but not on the LSx motors. So you couldn't just throw on the appropriate LSx intakes that matches the heads.

All in all, it's interesting if you wanted to build a full race Fiero, but impracitcally expensive otherwise, I think.

I have a 2006 GM performance parts book it shows the front and rear of this block. From the picture it does look like the standard 60 degree pattern.

It is possible to run a LSx Head on a small block. World Products is actually producing a Gen 1 block that you can bolt LSx heads to

quote Originally posted by blander66: It is possible to run a LSx Head on a small block. World Products is actually producing a Gen 1 block that you can bolt LSx heads to

But that isn't any generic SBC. It's a specially engineered block for using SBC internals, with LS heads. There's a big difference between that, and any run of the mill SBC, such as the one this thread is about.

FYI:
the 60* bolt pattern is technically called the B.O.P. bolt pattern. it stands for Buick, Olds, Pontiac.
the lager one found on all sbc engines is named the S.B.C. pattern (appropriately named)
neat find by the way.

quote Originally posted by BlackGT Codde: FYI: the 60* bolt pattern is technically called the B.O.P. bolt pattern. it stands for Buick, Olds, Pontiac. the lager one found on all sbc engines is named the S.B.C. pattern (appropriately named) neat find by the way.

No. The BOP pattern is different. The 60 degree pattern is called the Metric pattern.
And the common SBC pattern is the "Chevy V8 pattern," though it is also used on many other non-V8 engines, and is often referred to as the RWD pattern.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wik...bellhousing_patterns

L67 told me about this block a few months back.

Obviously more than one poster here is more familiar with the internal/relational workings of an engine than I am, so thought I'd ask some questions!

There was a lot of talk about using LS parts and Aurora parts, which were shot down for various reasons - what about parts out of a 350 SBC?
I see that it says it can be machined to accept any SBC head, so I know my heads would work - but what about the rest of my internals?
Can I use my pistons (once the block is bored for them)?
I'm guessing my pushrods and connecting rods would need to be replaced?
What exactly does "raised cam" mean? (and does it mean I can't use the cam I have?)

I wouldn't mind putting this on my list of "upgrades down the road", just want to know what else I'd need to plan for. The guy who built my current engine has a pretty extensive machine shop, so I think he'd be able to make any of the modifications to the block that are needed.

quote Originally posted by Trinten: L67 told me about this block a few months back. Obviously more than one poster here is more familiar with the internal/relational workings of an engine than I am, so thought I'd ask some questions! There was a lot of talk about using LS parts and Aurora parts, which were shot down for various reasons - what about parts out of a 350 SBC? I see that it says it can be machined to accept any SBC head, so I know my heads would work - but what about the rest of my internals? Can I use my pistons (once the block is bored for them)? I'm guessing my pushrods and connecting rods would need to be replaced? What exactly does "raised cam" mean? (and does it mean I can't use the cam I have?) I wouldn't mind putting this on my list of "upgrades down the road", just want to know what else I'd need to plan for. The guy who built my current engine has a pretty extensive machine shop, so I think he'd be able to make any of the modifications to the block that are needed.

The block itself is the Gen 1 SBC design, from what I can tell. It looks like it does need machining of various sorts to be usable. So yes, your standard Gen 1 SBC parts should generally work, though the block may need bored/sleeved/decked/aligned/etc… depending on what you do exactly. The camshaft is raised almost a half inch (further from the center of the crankshaft), so you'll need a different timing gear and chain most likely. This also changes the angle of the pushrods, so as the GMPP page states, you'll need shorter pushrods.

It is a race block, and is very bare; requiring a LOT of machine work, to be usable. If you're not building a very high HP race engine, I wouldn't recommend looking at it. If you're rich and just want something unique though, have at it.

Thanks for some of the info Dobey!

Not rich by most definitions, just someone that tends to put all his "Fun money" in limited places.

Won't get into my reasons for wanting to do it, because I've said similar things in other posts. Just want to do it.

Thank you again!

The big deal with this block is SHORT DECK.

You'll need a very short stroke crankshaft and short connecting rods to use this block. It can not be built with big displacement.

if you're gonna go as far as running one of these, find someone to make you a single plane crankshaft too, and run a small base circle cam with mechanical rollers. should be running a huge bore too, 4.2 or bigger. throw some dart 9* racing heads on it,

http://www.dartheads.com/pr...y-cylinder-head.html

or maybe arao 4v heads...

http://www.araoengineering.com/Chevy/chevysmb.htm

and hold on.

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there's a Group on 60degreeV6.com for us 660 Fiero owners!

Fiero Owner's group on 60degreeV6.com

Part of what you mentioned is a bit over my head, but things I can put down to ask Scott about when the times comes.

As for the mechanical rollers, I'm guessing that is another name for solid rollers? If so, I'd rather stick with my hydraulic rollers, less chance/often of having to adjust them.

As for heads, right now I'm running a set of AFR heads. Scott has worked with Brodix and Dart and Bowtie in the past, this was his first time with a set of AFR, said they were fantastic out of the box, he didn't have to do any 'touch up' work on them at all, and he found the flow numbers on them to be "impressive". So I'll probably just stick with the AFR for right now.

Will - I was doing some reading on short deck engines on the Vette forums (don't know if this one is even shorter than those), and a lot of guys said they were good, the big draw back - as you mentioned, is having to run shorter connecting rods, which according to one guy:

"Makes it tougher to get to that magical 1.7:1 ratio, where you can run incredible compression on pump gas."

But again, this one might even be shorter than the ones they're referring to. Scott is unfortunately out of town, but I'm supposed to fix up his computers on the 19th, so I'll pick his brain on all this then!

Thanks for the info/recommendations guys.

Standard deck height on a small block is 9.025. Deck height of this block is 8.325... 0.700 shorter. Even with only a 3" stroke, 5.7" conrods would need 1.125 compression height pistons. That's quite short.

On a Vette forum the deck height discussions are probably about the factory short and tall deck BIG block engines. Completely different.

There's ABSOLUTELY NOTHING magical about 1.7:1 rod/stroke ratio.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 11-10-2011).]

On the clutch issue -

So racers that are using this block... they're running automatics?

From Wiki...

Northstar patternNearly identical to the GM small corporate/metric pattern, except that the starter is located between the cylinder banks, and the lower right bolt hole is moved outward by roughly one inch. Being nearly identical, it too has the distinctive odd-sided hexagonal shape. These engines can be fitted in Rear Wheel Drive vehicles with the right bellhousing and are used in hot rods, kit cars, sand rails and late model engine swaps.

All Cadillac Northstar V8's
Oldsmobile Aurora L47 V8
Oldsmobile Intrigue LX5 V6

quote Originally posted by JumpStart: From Wiki... Northstar patternNearly identical to the GM small corporate/metric pattern, except that the starter is located between the cylinder banks, and the lower right bolt hole is moved outward by roughly one inch. Being nearly identical, it too has the distinctive odd-sided hexagonal shape. These engines can be fitted in Rear Wheel Drive vehicles with the right bellhousing and are used in hot rods, kit cars, sand rails and late model engine swaps. All Cadillac Northstar V8's Oldsmobile Aurora L47 V8 Oldsmobile Intrigue LX5 V6

That's true, but not so for this engine. The block would need a LOT of work to be able to mount a starter in that location. However, the block is presumably not drilled for starter on either side, and is designed such that the starter could be mounted in the correct location for the Metric pattern transmissions. The fact that the GMPP site says "Aurora V8 bell housing pattern" is mostly misinformation.

quote Originally posted by Trinten: On the clutch issue - So racers that are using this block... they're running automatics?

They're running longitudinal transmissions with deeper bellhousings.

This block is not built for any production based racecars...